What does it really take to create a mirrorless camera?

pinholecam · 12-18-2019, 10:13 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by CapitanXeon

Let's try to keep it civilizated, i'm just a car mechanic that is passionate about computers, and happens to know how to use a camera, but zero idea about building them.

But who knows how to properly create a camera is Pentax, or let's say Ricoh, and we can see it either with big bodies like the 645 or the K1, or either with tiny bodies like the Ricoh GR III.

My question is, what does it really take to create a mirrorless camera?

There are actual differences between a ML sensor and a DSLR sensor?
If not, how hard should be for Pentax to optimize development costs to slap like, whatever they have? Let's say, a KP/K1 sensor, the Q mount (probably impossible on an APS-C or FF sensor) or even a full K mount (i know that would add some thickness to the camera as we saw on the K-01), and combine what they already have to create something competitive on the mirrorless market? The Pentax user, i think, is more rationale when compromises come to mind, for example, i put the example sometimes that i prefer the weather sealing on my camera than some fancy WiFi connectivity.

I know this isn't that easy, but for example, on my car perspective, isn't that crazy to take a shell, pick whatever engine you like, craft some bits, and end with a pretty dope car which can, or can't, be street legal. I want to believe this can be done by Ricoh if there was some kind of market for mirrorless on the Pentax buyer standpoint.

What do you think?

Personally, I think it can be real easy as in the K01 was easy or as hard as a A7RIII or latest Canikon MILC.

For me, I'd get one even if it did not AF and just had a magnification and focus peaking for manual lenses.

Just need that native Pentax k-mount and Pentax's philosophy of user interface, imaging and features.
Extra points if it looks like a MX, LX, ME.

**luftfluss** · 12-19-2019, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Wasp

The thing is, Ricoh already have a capable mirrorless camera in the GR III. Just put a K mount on it and take our money. Or is it not that simple?

It's not than simple, if only because the K-mount's throat diameter and flange distance are huge compared with the GR's tiny body.

reh321 · 12-19-2019, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by CapitanXeon

Let's try to keep it civilizated, i'm just a car mechanic that is passionate about computers, and happens to know how to use a camera, but zero idea about building them.

But who knows how to properly create a camera is Pentax, or let's say Ricoh, and we can see it either with big bodies like the 645 or the K1, or either with tiny bodies like the Ricoh GR III.

My question is, what does it really take to create a mirrorless camera?

There are actual differences between a ML sensor and a DSLR sensor?

What do you think?

Traditionally, a MILC used the type of focusing used in LV and is conceptually the same type of focusing we do manually ..... move focus in and out to find the focus point. I believe that today that is called "CDAF". CDAF is not the same as DSLRs use, called "PDAF", which is faster, so the modern MILCs have "PDAF" points on the sensor. The K-70 is the only Pentax camera which is said to have "PDAF" points on the sensor, but it uses them only for video. As far as I know, no PF regular knows whether Sony put language into their contract with Ricoh that prevents Pentax from using on-sensor "PDAF" focusing for focusing still images.

added: PDAF points for a DSLR are located in a special sensor located up near to the prism. Manufacturing tolerance in placing this sensor is the cause of "front" and "rear" AF problems, problems which a MILC doesn't face because it doesn't use a separate sensor for AF.

Wasp · 12-20-2019, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by luftfluss

It's not than simple, if only because the K-mount's throat diameter and flange distance are huge compared with the GR's tiny body.

A new, supersized body would fix the physics. The result would look like a KP but with an EVF instead of a prisma. I could live with that.

Penview52 · 01-04-2020, 04:55 PM

New technology as compared to old , the mirror less camera advantage of good video, good auto focus and cheaper is still in initial stage of competition and introductory GR is a trial ( initial product to collect data that leads to perfection of the product ) until sufficient info to create a competitive product. Any invention is not right away perfect in its sense but trials is the way to perfection. In my view the Pentax mirror less camera is coming not just an improved DSLR. Remember VIVITAR film camera was known worldwide before but when digital camera is in they are way behind now in the technology. Where is Mamiya and Yashica of Japan - nowwhere to find, but pentax is not behind.

Andrzej Makuch · 01-07-2020, 01:23 PM

I think Pentax could release two mirrorless cameras - one FF and the other APSC. Both with a K-mount but with a smaller focusing distance and an intermediate ring allowing the existing lenses to be restored to full functionality until the development / production or purchase of new glasses. The corps would be smaller than, for example, K-01 ...
It would be an excellent backup device.
It would be an excellent second camera.

bertwert · 01-07-2020, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch

Both with a K-mount but with a smaller focusing distance

Sorry, but that's is a terrible idea. Think how much confusion that would cause.
If there is mirrorless development (about which I couldn't care less), it must use a different mount if it's at a shorter flange distance.

Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch

an intermediate ring allowing the existing lenses to be restored to full functionality

This, on the other hand, is not a terrible idea.
But there's no reason for the mirrorless to be K-mount, just have an adaptor with communicates all info, aperture stopdown, and screwdrive, etc..

Andrzej Makuch · 01-07-2020, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by bertwert

Sorry, but that's is a terrible idea. Think how much confusion that would cause.
If there is mirrorless development (about which I couldn't care less), it must use a different mount if it's at a shorter flange distance.

And why a different fastening right away? K is good. Even without an adapter it would be possible to attach a lens and it would sharpen endlessly ... And with the ring it would work normally.

bertwert · 01-07-2020, 06:34 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch

And why a different fastening right away? K is good. Even without an adapter it would be possible to attach a lens and it would sharpen endlessly ... And with the ring it would work normally.

Think about this.

Clueless guy buys a mirrorless k-mount (with short distance), buys a K-mount SLR lens, and now he can't focus, or maybe only just at infinity.
Other clueless guy buys a K-mount DSLR, buys a cool K-mount mirrorless lens, and now he can only focus very very close, or not at all!

Having two different flange distances for the same mounts is just a recipe for disaster, and makes no sense.
Also the definition of the K-mount is a flange distance of 45.46 millimetres, if you change this, then it's not a K-mount.

Andrzej Makuch · 01-08-2020, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by bertwert

Also the definition of the K-mount is a flange distance of 45.46 millimetres, if you change this, then it's not a K-mount.

It's just a matter of the name of the attachment - you can call it M and all the "disasters" you describe disappear. It is important that you can still close the old lenses. With P / K adapter rings, the lenses would sharpen normally.

fsge · 01-08-2020, 03:40 PM

Following this thread

tokyoscape · 01-08-2020, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Wasp

A new, supersized body would fix the physics. The result would look like a KP but with an EVF instead of a prisma. I could live with that.

Me too

FF the size of KP, no Mirror, no Prisma. no need to change the flange focal distance, therefore, no need for an adapter. They don't even have to do complicate hybrid viewfinder things. KP size body is not big and removing the mirror and Prisma could reduce significant weight (see from K01 vs K30) + less moving part and save some $$$ on the production. Let those love DSLR using K1 line, and those want mirrorless using K0 line and see which one can make more money. I will put my bet on the K0 line. If I am looking for a new Mirrorless system. Look at Pentax K0 body and its lenses price compaire to whatever Sony have to offer + its lens price? I would go for Pentax 100%. It has a very large lens selection and it can be very cheap if I don't mind useing some old manual lenses.

On the point of changing flange focal distance for the sake of smaller than KP body size, I think K mount mirrorless makes the most sense out of what all the other brands are doing because of the compatibility of the K to its decades of the legacy lense. Changing flange focal distance means we need adapter to use with the K mount lenses and Pentax needs to develop new lense lineup for the new mirrorless mount. We can already see how successful Canon and Nikon new mirrorless lens mounts are doing. The big question is; why repeat their mistake or some might say success?

**barondla** · 01-08-2020, 08:12 PM

Hope Pentax keeps the K mount on a new mirrorless body. I would glady give up a super slim body, that adapts other brand lenses, to be able to use the PK lenses already owned. It must have a high quality evf.

Thanks,
barondla

ZombieArmy · 01-08-2020, 09:05 PM

I don't think mirrorless cameras are even remotely close to being "fully realized". A big issue is EVFs, no matter what people say, still suck. They're sharp but when dealing with a lot of movement the latency just isn't there, and the refresh rate isn't there either.

The question is can they supply a sharp, extremely high refresh rate and low latency EVF while not killing the batteries quickly? OVFs are essentially free and can be used with no power while having perfect sharpness and latency.

bertwert · 01-08-2020, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by tokyoscape

FF the size of KP, no Mirror, no Prisma. no need to change the flange focal distance, therefore, no need for an adapter. They don't even have to do complicate hybrid viewfinder things. KP size body is not big and removing the mirror and Prisma could reduce significant weight (see from K01 vs K30) + less moving part and save some $$$ on the production. Let those love DSLR using K1 line, and those want mirrorless using K0 line and see which one can make more money. I will put my bet on the K0 line. If I am looking for a new Mirrorless system. Look at Pentax K0 body and its lenses price compaire to whatever Sony have to offer + its lens price? I would go for Pentax 100%. It has a very large lens selection and it can be very cheap if I don't mind useing some old manual lenses.

Am I the only one who ~~hates~~ strongly dislikes EVFs?

12-19-2019, 03:51 PM	#48
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by CapitanXeon Let's try to keep it civilizated, i'm just a car mechanic that is passionate about computers, and happens to know how to use a camera, but zero idea about building them. But who knows how to properly create a camera is Pentax, or let's say Ricoh, and we can see it either with big bodies like the 645 or the K1, or either with tiny bodies like the Ricoh GR III. My question is, what does it really take to create a mirrorless camera? There are actual differences between a ML sensor and a DSLR sensor? What do you think? Traditionally, a MILC used the type of focusing used in LV and is conceptually the same type of focusing we do manually ..... move focus in and out to find the focus point. I believe that today that is called "CDAF". CDAF is not the same as DSLRs use, called "PDAF", which is faster, so the modern MILCs have "PDAF" points on the sensor. The K-70 is the only Pentax camera which is said to have "PDAF" points on the sensor, but it uses them only for video. As far as I know, no PF regular knows whether Sony put language into their contract with Ricoh that prevents Pentax from using on-sensor "PDAF" focusing for focusing still images. added: PDAF points for a DSLR are located in a special sensor located up near to the prism. Manufacturing tolerance in placing this sensor is the cause of "front" and "rear" AF problems, problems which a MILC doesn't face because it doesn't use a separate sensor for AF. Last edited by reh321; 12-19-2019 at 04:13 PM.

01-08-2020, 04:17 PM	#57
tokyoscape Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,256	Originally posted by Wasp A new, supersized body would fix the physics. The result would look like a KP but with an EVF instead of a prisma. I could live with that. Me too FF the size of KP, no Mirror, no Prisma. no need to change the flange focal distance, therefore, no need for an adapter. They don't even have to do complicate hybrid viewfinder things. KP size body is not big and removing the mirror and Prisma could reduce significant weight (see from K01 vs K30) + less moving part and save some $$$ on the production. Let those love DSLR using K1 line, and those want mirrorless using K0 line and see which one can make more money. I will put my bet on the K0 line. If I am looking for a new Mirrorless system. Look at Pentax K0 body and its lenses price compaire to whatever Sony have to offer + its lens price? I would go for Pentax 100%. It has a very large lens selection and it can be very cheap if I don't mind useing some old manual lenses. On the point of changing flange focal distance for the sake of smaller than KP body size, I think K mount mirrorless makes the most sense out of what all the other brands are doing because of the compatibility of the K to its decades of the legacy lense. Changing flange focal distance means we need adapter to use with the K mount lenses and Pentax needs to develop new lense lineup for the new mirrorless mount. We can already see how successful Canon and Nikon new mirrorless lens mounts are doing. The big question is; why repeat their mistake or some might say success? Last edited by tokyoscape; 01-08-2020 at 04:42 PM.

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12-18-2019, 10:13 PM - 1 Like	#46
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	Originally posted by CapitanXeon Let's try to keep it civilizated, i'm just a car mechanic that is passionate about computers, and happens to know how to use a camera, but zero idea about building them. But who knows how to properly create a camera is Pentax, or let's say Ricoh, and we can see it either with big bodies like the 645 or the K1, or either with tiny bodies like the Ricoh GR III. My question is, what does it really take to create a mirrorless camera? There are actual differences between a ML sensor and a DSLR sensor? If not, how hard should be for Pentax to optimize development costs to slap like, whatever they have? Let's say, a KP/K1 sensor, the Q mount (probably impossible on an APS-C or FF sensor) or even a full K mount (i know that would add some thickness to the camera as we saw on the K-01), and combine what they already have to create something competitive on the mirrorless market? The Pentax user, i think, is more rationale when compromises come to mind, for example, i put the example sometimes that i prefer the weather sealing on my camera than some fancy WiFi connectivity. I know this isn't that easy, but for example, on my car perspective, isn't that crazy to take a shell, pick whatever engine you like, craft some bits, and end with a pretty dope car which can, or can't, be street legal. I want to believe this can be done by Ricoh if there was some kind of market for mirrorless on the Pentax buyer standpoint. What do you think? Personally, I think it can be real easy as in the K01 was easy or as hard as a A7RIII or latest Canikon MILC. For me, I'd get one even if it did not AF and just had a magnification and focus peaking for manual lenses. Just need that native Pentax k-mount and Pentax's philosophy of user interface, imaging and features. Extra points if it looks like a MX, LX, ME.

12-19-2019, 10:27 AM	#47
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Originally posted by Wasp The thing is, Ricoh already have a capable mirrorless camera in the GR III. Just put a K mount on it and take our money. Or is it not that simple? It's not than simple, if only because the K-mount's throat diameter and flange distance are huge compared with the GR's tiny body.

12-20-2019, 01:08 PM	#49
Wasp Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Pretoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,661	Originally posted by luftfluss It's not than simple, if only because the K-mount's throat diameter and flange distance are huge compared with the GR's tiny body. A new, supersized body would fix the physics. The result would look like a KP but with an EVF instead of a prisma. I could live with that.

01-04-2020, 04:55 PM	#50
Penview52 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Photos: Albums Posts: 327	New technology as compared to old , the mirror less camera advantage of good video, good auto focus and cheaper is still in initial stage of competition and introductory GR is a trial ( initial product to collect data that leads to perfection of the product ) until sufficient info to create a competitive product. Any invention is not right away perfect in its sense but trials is the way to perfection. In my view the Pentax mirror less camera is coming not just an improved DSLR. Remember VIVITAR film camera was known worldwide before but when digital camera is in they are way behind now in the technology. Where is Mamiya and Yashica of Japan - nowwhere to find, but pentax is not behind.

01-07-2020, 01:23 PM	#51
Andrzej Makuch Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: KRAKOW Photos: Gallery Posts: 65	I think Pentax could release two mirrorless cameras - one FF and the other APSC. Both with a K-mount but with a smaller focusing distance and an intermediate ring allowing the existing lenses to be restored to full functionality until the development / production or purchase of new glasses. The corps would be smaller than, for example, K-01 ... It would be an excellent backup device. It would be an excellent second camera.

01-07-2020, 01:33 PM	#52
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch Both with a K-mount but with a smaller focusing distance Sorry, but that's is a terrible idea. Think how much confusion that would cause. If there is mirrorless development (about which I couldn't care less), it must use a different mount if it's at a shorter flange distance. Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch an intermediate ring allowing the existing lenses to be restored to full functionality This, on the other hand, is not a terrible idea. But there's no reason for the mirrorless to be K-mount, just have an adaptor with communicates all info, aperture stopdown, and screwdrive, etc..

01-07-2020, 02:50 PM	#53
Andrzej Makuch Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: KRAKOW Photos: Gallery Posts: 65	Originally posted by bertwert Sorry, but that's is a terrible idea. Think how much confusion that would cause. If there is mirrorless development (about which I couldn't care less), it must use a different mount if it's at a shorter flange distance. And why a different fastening right away? K is good. Even without an adapter it would be possible to attach a lens and it would sharpen endlessly ... And with the ring it would work normally.

01-07-2020, 06:34 PM - 1 Like	#54
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch And why a different fastening right away? K is good. Even without an adapter it would be possible to attach a lens and it would sharpen endlessly ... And with the ring it would work normally. Think about this. Clueless guy buys a mirrorless k-mount (with short distance), buys a K-mount SLR lens, and now he can't focus, or maybe only just at infinity. Other clueless guy buys a K-mount DSLR, buys a cool K-mount mirrorless lens, and now he can only focus very very close, or not at all! Having two different flange distances for the same mounts is just a recipe for disaster, and makes no sense. Also the definition of the K-mount is a flange distance of 45.46 millimetres, if you change this, then it's not a K-mount.

01-08-2020, 11:15 AM	#55
Andrzej Makuch Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: KRAKOW Photos: Gallery Posts: 65	Originally posted by bertwert Also the definition of the K-mount is a flange distance of 45.46 millimetres, if you change this, then it's not a K-mount. It's just a matter of the name of the attachment - you can call it M and all the "disasters" you describe disappear. It is important that you can still close the old lenses. With P / K adapter rings, the lenses would sharpen normally.

01-08-2020, 03:40 PM	#56
fsge Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Genf Posts: 1,138	Following this thread

01-08-2020, 08:12 PM	#58
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,714	Hope Pentax keeps the K mount on a new mirrorless body. I would glady give up a super slim body, that adapts other brand lenses, to be able to use the PK lenses already owned. It must have a high quality evf. Thanks, barondla

01-08-2020, 09:05 PM	#59
ZombieArmy Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 3,210	I don't think mirrorless cameras are even remotely close to being "fully realized". A big issue is EVFs, no matter what people say, still suck. They're sharp but when dealing with a lot of movement the latency just isn't there, and the refresh rate isn't there either. The question is can they supply a sharp, extremely high refresh rate and low latency EVF while not killing the batteries quickly? OVFs are essentially free and can be used with no power while having perfect sharpness and latency.

01-08-2020, 09:31 PM	#60
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by tokyoscape FF the size of KP, no Mirror, no Prisma. no need to change the flange focal distance, therefore, no need for an adapter. They don't even have to do complicate hybrid viewfinder things. KP size body is not big and removing the mirror and Prisma could reduce significant weight (see from K01 vs K30) + less moving part and save some $$$ on the production. Let those love DSLR using K1 line, and those want mirrorless using K0 line and see which one can make more money. I will put my bet on the K0 line. If I am looking for a new Mirrorless system. Look at Pentax K0 body and its lenses price compaire to whatever Sony have to offer + its lens price? I would go for Pentax 100%. It has a very large lens selection and it can be very cheap if I don't mind useing some old manual lenses. Am I the only one who ~~hates~~ strongly dislikes EVFs?