Originally posted by jsherman999 Not at all moot. The object usually isn't to try to achieve the smallest DOF possible. Consider this: Say you like (on aps-c) the sharpness of a lens at f/4, but you really prefer the DOF of, say, f/2.5 for certain shooting. You say "If only there was a lens that gave me that f/4 sharpness with the DOF of f/2.5."
If you shot FF, you may be able to find an equivalent FL that would allow that - like my 50 vs 35mm example above. 50mm f/4.5 = 35mm f/2.8 DOF and FOV, but you're getting some extreme sharpness there on the target at f/4.5 with the 50mm.
Yeah, but you're going at it from the other end. You're discussing a purely aesthetic difference and supporting it with a technical argument. My point was t'other way round. There's no argument against "I *like* FF better". That's perfectly reasonable. My argument is that the technical discussions are just window dressing; the *technical* difference is moot - on a par with discussions about which lens one prefers, rather than some functional, useful superiority of FF.
Quote: Also, when shooting beyond a certain distance the DOF has expanded enough that everything on the target is in focus in both formats, but the deeper background has a bit more blur, allowing the subject to 'float' more in the frame.
If you so see such an image, let me know, because I haven't seen it either.
Everything we're talking about here is subtle and only stands (I think) out when you've had a lot of iterations with both formats.
That was kind of my point. I'd bet some change that if I took my K-5 and someone else picked up a FF of equivalent class and we slotted similar lens ranges and shot all day in the same environment, trading cameras every ten shots, then shuffled the images all together and handed them over to the group, I bet sorting them into FF and APS/C would fail to beat chance by any statistically significant amount. That's what I mean by "moot" in real-world application.
Quote: The success rate there would increase with experience with the colors and iterations.
Actually, it's impossible to close that gap. Our eye/brain systems are capable of discerning (seeing the difference between two colors observed simultaneously) far more colors than we can identify. It's neurology, not training. You can learn to identify *more*, and some people can naturally identify more, but typically we can identify ~1024 colors, but discern something like 256k.
Quote: Wine tasting is also a great analogy; I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a merlot and a chiraz, but someone who has spent a lot of time drinking wine could tell immediately. An actual pro wine taster would be able to identify not only the type, but approximate year and grape used for a given wine.
Actually, sommeliers have consistently failed to demonstrate such skill in scientific (blind) testing. A significant proportion of them have failed tests like identifying a white wine with red food coloring as such, rather than a red. Whole panels have marked *the same wine in two different bottles* as a five star winner and "undrinkable"
in the same flight. It's been clearly illustrated that, while they are better at it than someone who doesn't study wine, their claims of skill are hyperbolic at best, disingenuous at worst.
Quote: You can also think of it this way - take a bunch of shots with the F 50 1.7 and FA 43ltd, mix them up - would you be able to tell the difference in them, pick out which ones are from which lens? I'll bet that 8 times out of 10 you couldn't, yet we don't question the 43ltd's pedigree - although in real-world shooting, a good photographer could make do with either.
The difference between images produced by the F 50 1.7 and 43ltd is much smaller than the differences available between FF and aps-c. This is why I tend to see diminishing returns by buying more and more expensive lenses for aps-c - I think it might be better, if you really want to get a different look and capability, to get a FF body and equip it with some more modest lenses.
.
But that's what I'm challenging. If, in fact, I have to
create a situation where FF is clearly discernible from APS/C, then FF is a specialty format for that situation, much like a tilt-shift lens. If the difference isn't clearly visible in a large percentage of shots, then outside of that specialty application, FF is moot. (that's my argument right now, anyway; I'm still thinking it through).