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05-26-2012, 11:33 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The question, how could *you* have missed it, when you wrote it yourself? can't you see it completely invalidates the rest of your argument? If it is so damned important than no poor newbie ever have the slightest possibilty of being confused, you simply cannot allow them to use any non-WR lens. And you certainly can't sell a camera that *demands* to be used with a non kit lenses.

Your argument is based on the fact that some poor user might be confused. Mine is that this is unavoidable unless you take steps than no rational person would ever suggest aking. And that includes disallowing a body-only option. .
You're really reaching now, changing my own argument to fit yours. Why can't body-only be an option again?

- What are the chances of a newcomer to ILCs buying a body-only camera without a lens? Even the worst salesmen in the world would make them aware there's no lens in the box, and I assure you the customer would find out pretty quick once they got home. like i said before, and you conveniently dismissed (sense a pattern here), body-only forces the person to really consider their lens purchase, greatly reducing assumptions and mistakes.

- What are the chances an experienced user would want a non-WR kit lens over a WR one? If they'd even want a kit lens at all.

I'd say your scenarios are about 100x less likely than mine.


QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
So, because you are worried a few people won't do their homework, you disallow millions from having the option of buying a cheaper kit if they decide they don't need a sealed lens? That's just insane.
No, not a few, potentially thousands. How many people alone pre-ordered on B&H with the wrong listing?

Think of parents buying xmas/graduation presents, sports kids looking to upgrade their WR compact. Pentax has obviously been trying to open up their market to NEW users (K-01, K30), not stay focused purely on the photo-literate (OM-D, XPRO1).

Please tell me the downside of offering an 18-55mm WR kit instead of the DA-L. How much are they saving exactly? $50 difference at retail, $20/$30 subsidized as a kit? That's your argument? That's less than sales tax.

Conversely, if a newcomer DID do their homework, and wanted a WR kit like in all the ads, their cheapest outlet is body-only and a $200 additional lens. REQUIRE them to do their homework first, and pay more second. That's your solution.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
We might have been open to it ten years ago, but ten years of history have proven this just is not an issue, period. It is not going to magically start being an issue now if it wasn't before.
You act like Pentax has had smashing success the last 10 years. It's been sold twice in the last decade, struggling to fight in an SLR market against the two biggest camera companies in the world. Even Olympus and Sony gave that fight up years ago.

Pentax finally found a hole in their competition's armor, a product feature the mass-market can understand and appreciate, and at the right price. Affordable WR. They've finally started an aggressive marketing campaign that extols the unique virtues of this brand, but are blunting it with its mixed and confusing product-roll-out here in the States. It's already managed to confuse people here on PF, are you dismissing them too? Or just the poor fools out there who don't know as much about photographic equipment as we do?


Last edited by illdefined; 05-26-2012 at 12:35 PM.
05-26-2012, 11:39 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
I have the K-5 and I dont have a single WR lense. I understand my limitation
That's great Bob. but irrelevant to this discussion. wrong camera, wrong market.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
This goes for pros and amateurs alike. If someone knows enough about lenses (focal lengths, F-stops and such) to buy an extra lens and attach something from a different box onto their camera, then I consider them advanced enough to know the attributes of that lens and hold them entirely responsible for what they're doing.

I'm not talking about THEM (us).

I'm talking about the NEWcomers to ILCs, coming from compacts or superzooms, who don't measure their telephoto reach by mm, but by 10x, 4x and 2x.
05-26-2012, 01:00 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Different market and different marketing.
The K10 was a semi-pro camera for advanced users who knew about, and were in the market for the expensive DA* star line.
Really? Because the K10D is what turned myself and so many other new users onto Pentax. Weather sealing was a huge part in that choice, as there were plenty of ads touting the WR of the K10D. Being new users, of course we got it with the kit lens. Yet somehow, we managed to know that the lens was not sealed, and didn't destroy our cameras. WOW! We must all be ****ing geniuses!
05-26-2012, 01:19 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
Really? Because the K10D is what turned myself and so many other new users onto Pentax. Weather sealing was a huge part in that choice, as there were plenty of ads touting the WR of the K10D. Being new users, of course we got it with the kit lens. Yet somehow, we managed to know that the lens was not sealed, and didn't destroy our cameras. WOW! We must all be ****ing geniuses!
No, you sound like a photo enthusiast, the market for that camera and not a total newcomer to photography.


Last edited by illdefined; 05-26-2012 at 01:41 PM.
05-26-2012, 01:44 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Quote: people ask me why I repeat myself. it's because people here aren't open enough to fully consider what I'm actually saying in these posts.
Is it possible you aren't "open enough" to consider you are taking an unreasonable position?

FWIW, I argued about the (potential) deep-rear-element XS lens striking a mirror for a few days until I accepted that the vast majority of posters took the "buyer is intelligent" position - and at the time the K-01, clearly a beginner camera - which the K30 is not - was the apparent intended market for the XS line. I came to the conclusion that I was incorrect and desisted.

I implore you to look in the mirror and understand your unreasonable argument. The posters taking the time to debate this with you are not hard-headed sycophants. They are reasonable, rational photographers who actually want to help you see the light. Do you really think these posters haven't taken the time to consider your position? That's a bit arrogant, isn't it?

And examine this protest that you care about the brand. Do you really think you know more about the brand than Pentax management? If so, that's quite a display of hubris.
05-26-2012, 02:21 PM   #111
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As has been pointed out several times here already, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. What part of "...the K10D is what turned myself and so many other new users onto Pentax." did you not get? It was my first DSLR, and the first for so many others I know. None of us where enthusiasts. Many still aren't. It wasn't a problem then, it won't be a problem now. Get over it, and find something of actual importance to rail on.
05-26-2012, 02:23 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Is it possible you aren't "open enough" to consider you are taking an unreasonable position?

FWIW, I argued about the (potential) deep-rear-element XS lens striking a mirror for a few days until I accepted that the vast majority of posters took the "buyer is intelligent" position - and at the time the K-01, clearly a beginner camera - which the K30 is not - was the apparent intended market for the XS line. I came to the conclusion that I was incorrect and desisted.

I implore you to look in the mirror and understand your unreasonable argument. The posters taking the time to debate this with you are not hard-headed sycophants. They are reasonable, rational photographers who actually want to help you see the light. Do you really think these posters haven't taken the time to consider your position? That's a bit arrogant, isn't it?

And examine this protest that you care about the brand. Do you really think you know more about the brand than Pentax management? If so, that's quite a display of hubris.
How could they have really considered my position if they all keep misstating, and even restating my position for me?

I'm well aware the people here are informed, even accomplished photographers, and that's kind of my point. Not everybody is.

What "light" is it you want me to see? That Pentax's (rotating) management can do no wrong, and I'm not allowed to question it as a long time consumer? That's the definition of hubris to me, and Pentax isn't even doing it. You are.

Have I made any false statements or selectively ignored parts of people's arguments? I've taken the time to consider their (whole) arguments and responded with rational, logical counter-arguments to each of their points. If only that courtesy was reciprocated to me. I don't have to tell you the kind of personal and character abuse I've had to endure speaking my mind on here.

I don't see how 'caring' for a brand means supporting everything they do, no matter what. I want Pentax to grow and I can see this WR mix-up hurting them. To me, this is caring more than just looking the other way, or taking my own personal narrow view of what I need as a consumer and applying it to everybody else.

Last edited by illdefined; 05-26-2012 at 02:33 PM.
05-26-2012, 02:26 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
As has been pointed out several times here already, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. What part of "...the K10D is what turned myself and so many other new users onto Pentax." did you not get? It was my first DSLR, and the first for so many others I know. None of us where enthusiasts. Many still aren't. It wasn't a problem then, it won't be a problem now. Get over it, and find something of actual importance to rail on.
I started with an Olympus E20-n - a fixed lens dSLR that in 2003 was quite competent. The K10D brought me back to Pentax.

FWIW, I've never mistaken my LX and an M lens as waterproof either - though I've known forever it is weather-sealed. I was always more concerned about dust than water anyway.

05-26-2012, 02:29 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
As has been pointed out several times here already, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. What part of "...the K10D is what turned myself and so many other new users onto Pentax." did you not get? It was my first DSLR, and the first for so many others I know. None of us where enthusiasts. Many still aren't. It wasn't a problem then, it won't be a problem now. Get over it, and find something of actual importance to rail on.
Newcomer to PENTAX, but to photography? (see, I can read, can you?) Was it your first SLR? If so, that was quite a first camera. Maybe in your special case it was, but if you claim the K10D was meant to be an entry-level camera then all I can say is, it wasn't. Are you really going to tell me I'm wrong?
05-26-2012, 02:33 PM   #115
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First SLR for all of us. It doesn't matter what it was meant to be. It's the only thing they were marketing.
05-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
What "light" is it you want me to see? That Pentax's (rotating) management can do no wrong, and I'm not allowed to question it as a long time consumer? That's the definition of hubris to me, and Pentax isn't even doing it. You are. Have I made any false statements or selectively ignored parts of people's arguments? I've taken the time to consider their (whole) arguments and responded with rational, logical counter-arguments to each of their points. If only that courtesy was reciprocated to me. I don't have to tell you the kind of personal and character abuse I've had to endure speaking my mind on here.
I think you have been reading too much Saul Alinsky.

Last edited by monochrome; 05-26-2012 at 02:46 PM.
05-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
First SLR for all of us. It doesn't matter what it was meant to be. It's the only thing they were marketing.
Where were all the K100Ds and *ist Ds...? They were available back then, much cheaper too.

The K10D was quite a beast of a camera, my first DSLR was the K20D (not my first SLR tho)
05-26-2012, 06:41 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Where were all the K100Ds and *ist Ds...? They were available back then,
And not being marketed. Which makes all of your nonsense, just that. Nonsense. You can can talk all you want a about target groups, but the bottom line is it's all bullshit with regard to Pentax. They market one camera at a time, and that's pretty much all they have done in the time I've been familiar with them. This isn't Canikon where they target various segments. Pentax makes a couple of different cameras to fit in to a couple of different price points, and almost never at the same time.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
The K10D was quite a beast of a camera
That's about the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. There's nothing about a K10D, or any other higher end model, that will hinder anyone using it over a lower end model. Honestly, hand-holding, coddling thinking like yours is what leads to all the dumbasses out there that do the stupid shit you're so afraid of.
05-26-2012, 07:08 PM   #119
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Can we just leave this? It's getting tired, and a bit nasty.
05-26-2012, 07:10 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
And not being marketed. Which makes all of your nonsense, just that. Nonsense. You can can talk all you want a about target groups, but the bottom line is it's all bullshit with regard to Pentax. They market one camera at a time, and that's pretty much all they have done in the time I've been familiar with them. This isn't Canikon where they target various segments. Pentax makes a couple of different cameras to fit in to a couple of different price points, and almost never at the same time.

That's about the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. There's nothing about a K10D, or any other higher end model, that will hinder anyone using it over a lower end model. Honestly, hand-holding, coddling thinking like yours is what leads to all the dumbasses out there that do the stupid shit you're so afraid of.
That was actually a complement to the K10, I loved the hell out of my K20, but I see everything is all "bullshit" to you anyway, so um yeah, good talking to you.
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