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06-06-2012, 06:34 PM | #136 |
FYI, many monitor panels only display 6-bit per channel and achieve 8-bit by dithering only. The vast majority of graphic card and monitor connection combinations in application support 8-bit only. On that basis even 12-bit RAW files would be complete overkill. Of course, that's nonsense. So while there's a definite difference between a 12 bit and 14 bit file RAW image that the camera captures, most here will probably never have equipment that will be able to display the difference, nor use software that can handle 14 bit files or post process extensively to be able to exploit the difference. And there is no need to use special software that can "handle 14 bit files". Any plain RAW converter will use at least 16 bit per channel internally. You are confusing the ability to capture high dynamic range with a range of aspects regarding output fidelity. Maybe you should not be sitting on such a high horse when you are spreading half-truths yourself. | |
06-06-2012, 07:10 PM | #137 |
That's a completely separate discussion. FYI, many monitor panels only display 6-bit per channel and achieve 8-bit by dithering only. The vast majority of graphic card and monitor connection combinations in application support 8-bit only. On that basis even 12-bit RAW files would be complete overkill. Of course, that's nonsense. The point of representing image data with 14-bit per channel is absolutely not related to whether or not your display hardware can "show the difference". And there is no need to use special software that can "handle 14 bit files". Any plain RAW converter will use at least 16 bit per channel internally. You are confusing the ability to capture high dynamic range with a range of aspects regarding output fidelity. Maybe you should not be sitting on such a high horse when you are spreading half-truths yourself. I did mention there is definitely a difference between 12 bit and 14 bit output but given the current limitations of displays and print equipment, it would be difficult to distinguish between them in practice. Nobody is saying there isn't a difference but apparently you want to pick a argument and choose to misread what I've written. It's easy to try be a know it all on a forum but it is laughable when you profess to be an expert when you're still shooting with the long obsolete K100D... Buy a K-5 first before you talk about 14 bit images... it'll help your credibility a lot. | |
06-06-2012, 07:35 PM | #138 |
My main point is that you still cannot see the extra color bits on your display. Most monitors and video cards still only display 8 bits per channel (R, G, B), ie. 24 bit colors total. It doesn't matter if your files have 12 or 14 bits per channel, they have to be rendered as 8 bits in the end. ... If you think about it, 12 bits per RGB channel is already 36 bits. That is 64 billion individual colors. Even if there was a display that could display that many, I am not really sure that your eyes could differentiate them. If you have 14 bits per channel, then that's 42 bits total or 4.3 trillion different colors. Again, I am very doubtful your eyes could tell that many colors apart. This may not be the perfect example, but I think there is still a bit of a relationship: When I am scanning B&W negatives (or prints), especially really dark ones (due to photographer error or darkroom error), I will get, by far, the best results when I scan them in 24-bit color and dramatically adjust the Red, Green and Blue sliders and the Saturation slider in the scanning software, with further "color" editing in Photoshop. Not only does it bring out massive amounts of additional details in the shadows (depending on the quality of the negative), it also gives certain images an almost 3D look. Here are some examples (be sure to look at the last three or four sets first). I am also able to bring out great amounts of detail in the shadows and highlights in color images using the "Selective Colors" menu in Photoshop. There are lots of interlocking variables with all those different color-adjustment sliders. It takes practice to learn how to balance them "just so," but it is well worth the trouble. I, therefore, think that even though a computer screen cannot show all of the colors in a 14-bit RAW image, and the human eye cannot see them either, their presence still allows one to pull out all those amazing details, including from images that are so underexposed that they are nearly black. There are a number of excellent examples of almost black K-5 RAW images here on PentaxForums and other sites that have been restored so that you could never tell that they had been severely underexposed. From what I've seen of some K-01 images, 12-bit RAW images may be sufficiently manipulable too. But the question is, are they as manipulable as 14-bit RAW images? And will I, an enthusiast, really ever be in a situation in which I wish my camera had 14-bit RAW capabilities? Possibly not, but it sure would be nice to have that option if I ever do want it. I have a 27" iMac. It's default screen resolution is 2560 x 1440. Yes, it does matter. I will know to be very careful when I am talking about software around you from now on. Thanks for the heads up. I must also thank you, madbrain, for writing such a helpful and well written explanation for me. I appreciate it. Last edited by Welfl; 06-07-2012 at 11:04 AM. | |
06-06-2012, 08:56 PM - 1 Like | #139 |
Welfi, Until I did some research last night at SnapSort.com, I thought that the primary benefit of shooting in 14-bit RAW is that it allows the photographer to bring out much greater details in the shadows and highlights during post processing. Even actual reviewers led me to believe this. I didn't realize that it has (mostly) to do with colors. But! I think those extra "bits" of color (billions of additional colors) do make a huge difference in what you can pull out of the shadows and highlights, even if you cannot see or distinguish all those the colors themselves; and this is what matters to me the most. Quote: This may not be the perfect example, but I think there is still a bit of a relationship: When I am scanning B&W negatives (or prints), especially really dark ones (due to photographer error or darkroom error), I will get, by far, the best results when I scan them in 24-bit color and dramatically adjust the Red, Green and Blue sliders and the Saturation slider in the scanning software, with further "color" editing in Photoshop. Not only does it bring out massive amounts of additional details in the shadows (depending on the quality of the negative), it also gives certain images an almost 3D look. There are now many scanners that have more than 8 bits per channel, ie. more than 24 bits total, which might serve you well. For example this one which has been out for years and is still sold. I My father scanned many slides with an Epson scanner before he passed 2 years ago. I think this was the model. I believe my sister has it now. EPSON Perfection V500 Photo Scanner - Product Information - Epson America, Inc. It does 48 bit internal/external. I now have one of these at home too . My partner is using it, I did not try it myself. But it claims to support 48 bit color, internal/external. It is under $150 on Amazon I don't have many negatives, and no slides. I have never done much film . Quote: Here are some examples. I am also able to bring out great amounts of detail in the shadows and highlights in color images using the "Selective Colors" menu in Photoshop. There are lots of interlocking variables with all those different color-adjustment sliders. It takes practice to learn how to balance them "just so," but it is well worth the trouble. I, therefore, think that even though a computer screen cannot show all of the colors in a 14-bit RAW image, and the human eye cannot see them either, their presence still allows one to pull out all those amazing details, including from images that are so underexposed that they are nearly black. There are a number of excellent examples of almost black K-5 RAW images here on PentaxForums and other sites that have been restored so that you could never tell that they had been severely underexposed. From what I've seen of some K-01 images, 12-bit RAW images may be sufficiently manipulable too. But the question is, are they as manipulable as 14-bit RAW images? And will I, an enthusiast, really ever be in a situation in which I wish my camera had 14-bit RAW capabilities? Possibly not, but it sure would be nice to have that option if I ever do want it. Quote: I will definitely do post processing. I'm looking forward to it. With the K-r at 6fps continuous, I find that I can handhold a 1600mm lens and get good shots. Just throw away all the blurry shots ... Much much better than PP ! Quote: This is going to be a huge problem for me. I can hardly bear to throw away anything that I've created (with some exceptions). I can throw away other stuff, but not stuff I've created. My hard drives are going to get pretty full. However, I have scanned several thousand negatives in TIFF format at 3200 dpi, and another several thousand prints in TIFF format at 1200 dpi, and I still have plenty of free hard drive space. The PP might be helpful for the shots I took with my first digital camera, a 3MP olympus compact about 11 years ago. Or with some cell phone pictures Quote: I have a 27" iMac. It's default screen resolution is 2560 x 1440. Quote: I must also thank you, madbrain, for writing such a helpful and well written explanation for me. I appreciate it. | |
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06-06-2012, 10:24 PM | #140 |
Reasonable people know that what you own does not define what you know about an area. I'll stop that discussion with you now because it is not productive. I hesitated to even comment on your incorrect statements, but I found the combination of arrogant tone ("armchair critics") and partial ignorance rather annoying. | |
06-06-2012, 11:09 PM | #141 |
For example this one which has been out for years and is still sold. I My father scanned many slides with an Epson scanner before he passed 2 years ago. I think this was the model. I believe my sister has it now. EPSON Perfection V500 Photo Scanner - Product Information - Epson America, Inc. It does 48 bit internal/external. LOL! I'm pretty darned certain I've gotten a bad reputation on this site for always beating dead horses and writing novelette-length comments. Last edited by Welfl; 06-07-2012 at 11:11 AM. | |
06-06-2012, 11:24 PM | #142 |
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06-07-2012, 06:00 AM | #143 |
Rather than quote multiple people I'll just drop in my 2 cents. the best print and monitors are not capable of displaying the full gamut of colours of 12 or 14 bit. this is agree with the fact that some think this means they are not useful is off base though. Colour range is not the only thing affected. so is grey scale. this impacts your ability to resolve shadows for instance. anyone who has looked at what can be pulled from a failed exposure on a k5 can see this effect. Add in the fact that monitor and graphic cards improve with time (they always do) so there is some future proofing. 4k and 8k displays are on the horizon for instance (sill low res but far more demanding than our current crop) the 12 bit on K30 K-01 pretty much smells of lower end model crippling. will it make a huge difference to most users? nope not a chance. But their are users who will demand it. | |
06-07-2012, 07:03 AM | #144 |
There are two questions with 12 bit versus 14 bit images in my opinion. (1) Will your ouput medium take advantage of the improvement between the two files? The answer seems to be pretty clearly no. I can't honestly say that at normal sizes, either printing or viewing on a monitor, I can see a significant difference between the K5's output and my K10. There just isn't anything obvious at low iso (high iso is a different story, but that isn't related to the 14 bit output). (2) Are you likely to go back and rework files down the road if software/output media improves? The answer again for me is no. I do compulsively keep RAW files, but once they are done, I am very unlikely to go back in and reprocess them. It just doesn't happen. If I had the choice between increased fps with 12 bit processing and slower fps with 14 bit processing, I would choose 12 bit any day of the week. As to the K-01, it is clear that it's hardware is just not up to high processing speeds. Is it crippled? Well, sort of. I would just describe it as slow. How many frames per second does it do? My understanding is that it does about 1 frame per second RAW and has only 10 frame buffer even for jpeg. K30 just will have a lot better hardware. | |
06-07-2012, 09:22 AM | #145 |
Still, I think (meaning this is a semi-educated guess based on my anecdotal experiences) that the billions of extra colors that one gets in those additional "bits" may help one to pull out, see and work with many additional levels of gray in the overall grayscale. That has certainly been my experience when using "exaggerated" color settings to scan B&W images. Also, we all know how infrared, allows us to see in the dark. Very good point. Exactly. Maybe, as some have stated (and by "maybe" I mean I'm making a semi-educated layperson's guess), it requires a more powerful "imaging engine" to handle 14-bit RAW -- or maybe it doesn't --, but, from what I've read, the K-30's "Prime M" imagining engine is more powerful than the one in the K-5; therefore, theoretically, it should be better at handling 14-bit RAW images than the K-5, and the K-5 handles them just fine. On the other hand, If the K-01 is any indication of what the "Prime M" is all about, as far as power goes, then I am not impressed at all. Now I shall patiently wait for someone to tell me that the "imaging engine" is not the part of the camera that provides the "power" that is required to process RAW images. Last edited by Welfl; 06-07-2012 at 11:15 AM. | |
06-07-2012, 09:45 AM | #146 |
As to the K-01, it is clear that it's hardware is just not up to high processing speeds. Is it crippled? Well, sort of. I would just describe it as slow. How many frames per second does it do? My understanding is that it does about 1 frame per second RAW and has only 10 frame buffer even for jpeg. K30 just will have a lot better hardware. | |
06-07-2012, 10:00 AM | #147 |
Site Supporter | Careful on that request. Quick release can be analogous to "less secure". There's a reason why camera straps are lug-locked to the frame.
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06-07-2012, 11:44 AM | #148 |
with regards to future-proofing, how long would one is going to use the K-5? I'm sure that every year, a new camera with better sensor would come out and possibly with higher bit range. personally, I think the K-5 will do well still in the next 5 years, but it won't be as competitive with the newer cameras since some of the improvisation would occur with regards to performance and better implementation of the bit data. the K-5 is about 2 years old and surely there are newer sensor development that would deemed the K-5 a grand dad in 2 more years. people will still use the K-5 because it's a great camera, but it is no longer the creme de la creme.
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06-07-2012, 04:50 PM | #149 |
with regards to future-proofing, how long would one is going to use the K-5? I'm sure that every year, a new camera with better sensor would come out and possibly with higher bit range. personally, I think the K-5 will do well still in the next 5 years, but it won't be as competitive with the newer cameras since some of the improvisation would occur with regards to performance and better implementation of the bit data. the K-5 is about 2 years old and surely there are newer sensor development that would deemed the K-5 a grand dad in 2 more years. people will still use the K-5 because it's a great camera, but it is no longer the creme de la creme. | |
06-07-2012, 05:22 PM | #150 |
Loyal Site Supporter | As to the K-01, it is clear that it's hardware is just not up to high processing speeds. Is it crippled? Well, sort of. I would just describe it as slow. How many frames per second does it do? My understanding is that it does about 1 frame per second RAW and has only 10 frame buffer even for jpeg. K30 just will have a lot better hardware. These questions are like asking why a four-banger Impreza doesn't have a turbocharger. Clearly Subaru has disabled some of the HP potential on the basic model when they could just as easily have put a turbo on all of them. Get my drift? Different cars for different buyers. Wait for the turbocharged K-02 (and expect it to be in the Newson body). |
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