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07-07-2012, 11:07 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Welfl, If you like the construction of the K-r and the controls/ image quality of the K-5 can't imagine you not liking the K-30. The veiwfinder is the same size as the K-5. The dual controls work like other top level K cams. This is a very nice camera.
I know. I would love to have a K-30. I've been studying it pretty heavily since a few days before it was officially announced.

I've never handled a K-r nor any Pentax DSLR, so I can only go by what everyone else says about how they feel and perform. Your positive comments are very encouraging.

QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Minor point - The K-5 competes with the D7000 and the 7D.
I know.

QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Canon 7D MSRP at introduction: $1699
Nikon D7000 - Approximately $1600

So it was not a "crazy" starting price - it was the normal (and still is) starting price of the semi-professional APS-C cameras.
Well, to be honest, I wasn't necessarily only picking on Pentax with my "crazy" comment, since most expensive APS-C DSLRs can fit in one hand. As a relative newcomer to the world of DSLRs, I feel that all camera manufacturers have an inflated sense of the value of their DSLRs. I also know that I'm in an incredibly tiny minority with that opinion, because I never hear the end of it whenever I make such "blasphemous" and/or "uninformed" statements.

That said, the D7000 actually started out at $1,499 with kit lens. The K-5 started out at $1,599, body only. I was watching both of them pretty closely for several months in early 2011. The D7000 pretty quickly dropped to $1,299 and stayed there for a long time. The K-5 eventually dropped to about $1,499 and stayed there for a long time.

07-07-2012, 11:32 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by TJWest Quote
I think a lot of people here are comparing this to the K-5
I'm only comparing the K-30's sensor to that of the K-5, not the rest of the camera. Since they have basically the same sensor, and the K-30 also has a supposedly better processor (the Prime M), it should be more than capable of taking 14-bit RAW images, and it wouldn't have cost Pentax a single extra penny to do this (well, maybe one extra penny). I also find it hard to believe that would it have cost them any sales of the proposed "K-3," since the "K-3" had darned well better have a lot more going for it than just 14-bit RAW. Canon has several budget DSLRs that take 14-bit RAW images, yet this clearly hasn't cost them any sales of their more professional DSLRs.

QuoteOriginally posted by TJWest Quote
it is not meant to be the K5's replacement, it is meant to be a cheaper version of the K5
I know, but I think cameras can and should take the same upgrade and price path as computers. In the early days of newer, faster and more powerful computer technology, it costs a lot of money. After it becomes more common, that very same powerful technology is sold at much lower prices in "budget" models, while the very latest powerful technology is sold in the newest high-end computers. Apple's computers, which I have been buying since 1988, are a prime example of this. Yes, the K-30 is the replacement for the K-r, but 2010 iMacs were replacements for 2009 iMacs, yet they were given the same processing power as the recently discontinued high-end Mac Pros, but at much lower iMac prices. The only tradeoff, and it is an infuriatingly unethical one (IMO), is that iMacs are very hard for their owners to open in order to repair or replace certain parts, while Mac Pros are a dream for them to open in order to repair or replace most parts.

Last edited by Welfl; 07-07-2012 at 11:51 PM.
07-08-2012, 12:02 AM   #33
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fair enough! Perhaps they didn't want to kill off the K5 prematurely by giving the k30 exactly the same 14 bit processor? There are still those who will choose the k5 over the K30, and the K3 is probably months away at best. But at the end of the day, the k30 offers a gods-awful lot for its price.

Just have to add to this, the K30 is meant to target new to DSLR folks, and not necessarily those already owning a k5. Those who are considering a first Pentax will most likely go for the newer technology k30
07-08-2012, 08:57 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by TJWest Quote
fair enough!
I wasn't expecting that! I appreciate your courteous response.

QuoteOriginally posted by TJWest Quote
There are still those who will choose the k5 over the K30
I am one of those people who would choose a K-5 (at its present discount) -- if only it had focus peaking.

QuoteOriginally posted by TJWest Quote
Just have to add to this, the K30 is meant to target new to DSLR folks
Regrettably, I'm sort of stuck in my own unique double twilight zone. I am new to DSLRs. In fact, I don't even own one yet; however, the problem is that I started researching them for the first time in late December 2010, or early January 2011. Prior to that time, I knew nothing about any of them. I soon found Pentax cameras because they have the thing I wanted most at that time (and still do): full compatibility with my old manual K-mount lenses (it was sheer blind luck that I had been using Vivitar, Ricoh and Sears cameras and lenses since 1980). It was very soon after that that I discovered the K-5, which had only been released two or three months earlier. Its amazing color depth, its high ISO and its amazing dynamic range -- all thanks to that outstanding Sony sensor and its supporting Pentax technology -- and also to 14-bit RAW -- were clearly apparent in every photo I saw on PentaxForums and Flickr; however, its price, when compared to all the Canikon kit prices I had just been studying, was a major shock to a newcomer like me. It cost more than twice as much as I had been expecting to pay. Even worse, its price was for the body only. How unfair that Fate had done this to me, I thought. There was no way I could justify paying that much just to take pictures of the same old generic, impersonal prairie scenery that I had already been photographing ad nauseam since 2003. But I also was not about to settle for the competition anymore, nor for any "lesser" Pentax model, either. I was stuck in the first layer of my twilight zone.

Old passions die hard, though. I couldn't quit studying the K-5's images on PentaxForums and Flickr. I literally looked at thousands of them on Flickr over the next year because they are so impressive. The more I looked, the more i knew no other camera would suffice, except maybe the K-r's replacement, which I hoped would be a "K-5 Lite," but only insofar as body features go, not image quality (in the days of film SLRs, camera companies could not lower image quality just to make their "consumer" cameras less competitive with their "high-end" cameras; image quality in those days was entirely dependent upon the quality of the lenses -- and upon the photographers -- especially the latter, IMO).

Then, just as the K-5's price was becoming "reasonable" (by my standards), that newfangled focus peaking had to come along and "ruin" everything all over again. It suddenly made my old lenses dramatically more attractive than they already were. Naturally, Pentax refuses to add focus peaking to the K-5 via a firmware update; therefore, I am now stuck in the second layer of my twilight zone.


Last edited by Welfl; 07-08-2012 at 09:36 AM.
07-08-2012, 09:30 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Welfl Quote
...
Regrettably, I'm sort of stuck in my own unique double twilight zone. I am new to DSLRs. In fact, I don't even own one yet; however, the problem is that I started researching them for the first time in late December 2010, or early January 2011. Prior to that time, I knew nothing about any of them. .....It was very soon after that that I discovered the K-5, which had only been released two or three months earlier. Its amazing color depth, its high ISO and its amazing dynamic range -- all thanks to that out3tanding Sony sensor and its supporting Pentax technology -- and also to 14-bit RAW -- were clearly apparent in every photo I saw on PentaxForums and Flickr; however, its price, when compared to all the Canikon kit prices I had just been studying, was a major shock to a newcomer like me. It cost more than twice as much as I had been expecting to pay. Even worse, its price was for the body only. ...

Then, just as the K-5's price was becoming "reasonable" (by my standards), that newfangled focus peaking had to come along and "ruin" everything all over again. It suddenly made my old lenses dramatically more attractive than they already were. Naturally Pentax refuses to add focus peaking to the K-5 via a firmware update; therefore, I now am in stuck the second layer of my twilight zone.
Welfi, if I may say so, you're too caught up over thinking and researching on camera specs. It would be a stretch to call yourself a newcomer when by your own admission you haven't even got a Pentax or any other DSLR to begin with. Assuming it is even technically possible, there is frankly no reason why Pentax should offer focus peaking for the K-5, a camera which is already coming to the end of it's model life. Other camera manufacturers don't retrospectively introduce new features and I do not see why Pentax should be any different, again assuming it is technically feasible in the first place. Set a realistic budget rather than hoping and fussing over this spec or that. Bottomline, just get the K-30 (a camera that's almost 2 years newer technology wise compared to the K-5), ditch your old glass and start afresh on your digitally journey using a DSLR.

Last edited by creampuff; 07-08-2012 at 09:42 AM.
07-08-2012, 09:33 AM   #36
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07-08-2012, 10:36 AM   #37
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Before I get into my too long comment, I think we (I) should stop hijacking barondla's great thread! I want to hear more from him on his impressions of the K-30. This hijacking originally started because I wrote a one-sentence reply to barondla that everyone should have just let die. I am constitutionally incapable of remaining quiet when someone disagrees with me, so please, everyone, for all of our sakes, stop disagreeing with me! Hahaha.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Welfi, if I may say so, you're too caught up over thinking and researching on camera specs
You may be right, but every time I didn't do extensive research in the past, I ended up getting the wrong/worse model. Therefore, I choose to do extensive research (I guess it is the computer technician in me). Most of the time my research didn't inadvertently get me caught in a personal quandary like this.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
I don't know how you would even call yourself a newcomer when by your own admission you haven't even got a Pentax or any other DSLR to begin with.
I guess I should have been more technically precise: I am a newcomer to the study of DSLRs. I have researched all aspects of them pretty extensively over the past year and a half (I learn quickly and retain what I learn). I even read a huge portion of the K-5 manual (PDF) last year. Therefore, I know that when I finally get a Pentax DSLR, it will feel relatively familiar to me. -- It's like studying some town on Google Maps and Google Street View that I've never visited before. When I get there, everything will be familiar to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Assuming it is even technically possible, there is frankly no reason why Pentax should offer focus peaking for the K-5, a camera which is already coming to the end of it's model life. Other camera manufacturers don't retrospectively introduce new features
Sony Firmware Update Brings Peaking to NEX-3 and NEX-5 (PopPhoto, June 21, 2011).

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Set a realistic budget rather than hoping and fussing over this spec or that.
Despite my minor disappointments over various technical limitations of the K-30 (but especially over the reasons they were built into the K-30), I am generally very pleased with it and impressed by it. I will probably buy it instead of any other model. Once I have it, I will probably be absolutely thrilled to own it. So far, everyone on PentaxForums who has one says they love it. That's curing my doubts better than anything else. My main problem is that I cannot justify buying any DSLR anymore, even though I want one. Therefore, the K-30's arbitrarily added technical limitations are more prominent in my mind than maybe they should be. But I am who I am .

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Bottomline, just get the K-30, ditch your old glass. ...
If I ditch my old glass, then I might as well buy a K-5. I look at my old lenses the way women look at their diamond rings. They are just too beautiful and classy to "ditch." And there is a lot of sentimental value in them. I would love to make use of them again, especially coupled with modern technology. That's not to say that I don't look forward to using modern AF lenses, because I do. The 18-135 WR kit lens is especially appealing to me, even though it may cost a tiny bit more than I think it should.

P.S. My name is spelled WELFL, not WELFI.

Last edited by Welfl; 07-08-2012 at 10:41 AM.
07-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Welfl Quote
Before I get into my too long comment, I think we (I) should stop hijacking barondla's great thread! I want to hear more from him on his impressions of the K-30. This hijacking originally started because I wrote a one-sentence reply to barondla that everyone should have just let die. I am constitutionally incapable of remaining quiet when someone disagrees with me, so please, everyone, for all of our sakes, stop disagreeing with me! Hahaha.

You may be right, but every time I didn't do extensive research in the past, I ended up getting the wrong/worse model. Therefore, I choose to do extensive research (I guess it is the computer technician in me). Most of the time my research didn't inadvertently get me caught in a personal quandary like this.

I guess I should have been more technically precise: I am a newcomer to the study of DSLRs. I have researched all aspects of them pretty extensively over the past year and a half (I learn quickly and retain what I learn). I even read a huge portion of the K-5 manual (PDF) last year. Therefore, I know that when I finally get a Pentax DSLR, it will feel relatively familiar to me. -- It's like studying some town on Google Maps and Google Street View that I've never visited before. When I get there, everything will be familiar to me.

Sony Firmware Update Brings Peaking to NEX-3 and NEX-5 (PopPhoto, June 21, 2011).

Despite my minor disappointments over various technical limitations of the K-30 (but especially over the reasons they were built into the K-30), I am generally very pleased with it and impressed by it. I will probably buy it instead of any other model. Once I have it, I will probably be absolutely thrilled to own it. So far, everyone on PentaxForums who has one says they love it. That's curing my doubts better than anything else. My main problem is that I cannot justify buying any DSLR anymore, even though I want one. Therefore, the K-30's arbitrarily added technical limitations are more prominent in my mind than maybe they should be. But I am who I am .

If I ditch my old glass, then I might as well buy a K-5. I look at my old lenses the way women look at their diamond rings. They are just too beautiful and classy to "ditch." And there is lots of sentimental value in them. I would love to make use of them again, especially coupled with modern technology. That's not to say that I don't look forward to using modern AF lenses, because I do. The 18-135 WR kit lens is especially appealing to me, even though it may cost a tiny bit more than I think it should.

P.S. My name is spelled WELFL, not WELFI.
Keep your old glass - it works just fine on Pentax cameras, which is part of the attraction of the K mount (and the M42). Once you have used them for a while you can decide, in an informed way, which still suit you and which can go to make room (and add to your budget) for newer lenses. I'm in the process of selling off 6-7 lenses right now. It's hard but I hardly use them and I'd be better served by something like a 70-200/2.8 for kids sports. So, I'm giving advice as I would do it myself (and am). From everything I have seen so far the K-30 looks like another solid hit by Pentax in their K dSLR lineup. They've only had one real clunker so far in that line. Anyway, hope you get your K-30 soon.

07-08-2012, 10:55 AM   #39
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WELFL,

Not sure if this continues the hijack or not.

It seems like you are hung up on 14-bit RAW vs. 12-bit. I assume that there are file size differences. Are you OK with that?

It also seems like you are hung up on focus peaking. Do you plan on using live view a lot? Personally, I hardly ever use it. Also, will focus peaking even work with M or A lenses? I am assuming that since you have older glass they are M's or A's. It seems like it should work, but I am curious.
07-08-2012, 10:56 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Keep your old glass - it works just fine on Pentax cameras, which is part of the attraction of the K mount (and the M42).
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement.

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Once you have used them for a while you can decide, in an informed way, which still suit you and which can go to make room (and add to your budget) for newer lenses. I'm in the process of selling off 6-7 lenses right now. It's hard but I hardly use them
This has definitely crossed my mind. I keep thinking (worrying?) that I will find my manual lenses less appealing and far less convenient once I get used to using AF lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
From everything I have seen so far the K-30 looks like another solid hit by Pentax in their K dSLR lineup.
Agreed!

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
They've only had one real clunker so far in that line.
The K-7?

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Anyway, hope you get your K-30 soon.
I do too. I think it is sort of like ripping off a bandaid. I just need to hurry up and get it over with.
07-08-2012, 11:27 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
It seems like you are hung up on 14-bit RAW vs. 12-bit.
It would sure seem that way, wouldn't it? I blame it on the introduction of the K-5 right when I decided to move up to a DSLR, but I also blame it equally on my having scanned thousands of negatives over the past eight years, where bringing out the details in the highlights and shadows has become one of my favorite, but most frustrating, pastimes/obsessions. To have a camera that makes this process incredibly easy, thanks to its sensor and 14-bit RAW images, is just too appealing. The K-01's sensor, which is identical to the K-30's sensor, does not do as good a job as the K-5 (see Frank's K-01 Singapore thread for some great comparison shots). But I'm grudgingly willing to lower my expectations just a smidgen with regard to the K-30.

QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
I assume that there are file size differences. Are you OK with that?
Yes, I am. I've discussed this on another thread. I don't take one-tenth the amount of pictures that most DSLR users seem to take (at least here on PentaxForums). I've even scanned most of my seven or eight thousand negatives and prints as 3200 DPI TIFF files.

QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
It also seems like you are hung up on focus peaking.
True. Based on what Docrwm wrote above, and on my reply to him, I probably shouldn't be; but, as he also says, I probably need to learn this for myself (just as he did).

QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
Do you plan on using live view a lot?
I've been using live view exclusively since 2003 on my Nikon Point and Shoot, so it wouldn't be too painful for me to continue. I actually prefer it to a viewfinder, since it has been invaluable in helping me to compose many decent shots, compared to my 38 years of shooting film and having to guess what each shot would ultimately look like; but maybe that will change with a DSLR since one can "fix" images in post processing, thanks in large part to the RAW format.

QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
Also, will focus peaking even work with M or A lenses? I am assuming that since you have older glass they are M's or A's. It seems like it should work, but I am curious.
Yes, it will work with them. Check out the K-01 shots on this page by Alfred and nparsons13, and here by ibkc.

Last edited by Welfl; 07-08-2012 at 02:07 PM.
07-08-2012, 11:30 AM   #42
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Welfl, to my understanding the Sony NEX cameras you mentioned were rushed to market with less than complete functionality, so if they did add focus peaking with firmware upgrades, then good for Sony users. The fact remains that this is more the exception than the rule.

Being thoroughly familiar with the K-5 manual and researching is completely different to actually using and interacting directly with the camera. One can be familiar with the technical ins and outs of a car but all of this is pointless unless one actually drives it, because technical specs alone will never provide the experience of driving. You're splitting hairs when you talk about the K-01 sensor not being as good as the K-5 especially when you haven't even got a Pentax camera to validate this claim firsthand.

The reason why I suggest you start afresh as far as lenses go is that you mentioned you had been using Vivitar, Ricoh and Sears cameras and lenses since 1980. Sure the K-mount offers compatibility with legacy glass but with the high resolving capability of current sensors, these lenses are not likely to offer stellar optical performance (many are crap imo). Many might disagree with me on this point but I take the view that if you're buying a modern camera why be crippled with restricted functionality just because you got old MF lenses lying around.

Last edited by creampuff; 07-08-2012 at 11:44 AM.
07-08-2012, 11:34 AM   #43
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Sounds like you will be happier with the K-30. Either that or wait for the K-5 replacement. I would bet my house that it will have focus peaking. Of course it will be much more expensive than a K-30.
07-08-2012, 11:34 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Welfl Quote
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement.
....
The K-7?
....
No, it was a pretty good step up. The K-5 is an improvement for certain but the body is the same and the ergonomics are part of what everyone raves about with Pentax cameras. Pentax thought that they could improve the K-x in the same manner that they did the K-7, but the K-r is not an improvement over the K-x IMHO. That is for other threads and has been commented on elsewhere.

The K-30 manual is online, there are videos of it in use on Youtube by members here (as well as others), its getting time in front of Bloggers and Magazine types, and its looking good so far. Now, the real test is when folks start using it in all sorts of situations and report back.
07-08-2012, 12:11 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Well being thoroughly familiar with the K-5 manual and researching is completely different to actually using and interacting directly with the camera. One can be familiar with the technical ins and outs of a car but it is pointless unless one actually drives it, no way can you really know what it's like.
I know, and don't think that doesn't worry me. One of the reasons, I temporarily gave up on the K-5 (and all DSLRs) last year is because some guy on Flickr bought a K-5 and couldn't figure out how to use it right (and seemed to stop using it and reverted back to his P&S cameras). That scared me, because I figured I might have just as much trouble as he did once I actually held one; however, a few months ago I resumed my research, and I keep trying to convince myself that I can do it, if so many others did so also. Everyone was a beginner at one point. I am a completely self-taught computer (Mac) technician. I have repeatedly just dived in over the past 15 years and took my chances doing things I had never done before, always with complete success. A lot of my courage was (and is) gained by doing research on the internet first.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
You're splitting hairs when you talk about the K-01 sensor not being as good as the K-5. You haven't even got a Pentax camera to validate this claim firsthand.
Oops, I "misspoke." I didn't mean to say that the K-01's sensor isn't as good as the K-5's. I know it is at least equally as good as the one in the K-5. I just meant to say that the K-01 itself doesn't take as good a pictures as the K-5 at high ISO but especially with regard to dynamic range (based on Frank from Singapore's comparison shots). I believe that is entirely due to the K-01's 12-bit RAW limitation. This is what is so frustrating about this whole thing (as I wrote earlier in this thread). The K-01 and K-30 are perfectly equipped to handle 14-bit RAW and to take photos that are totally identical to those of the K-5, but Pentax intentionally limited the K-01 and K-30 to 12-bit RAW.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The reason why I suggest you start afresh as far as lenses go is that you mentioned you had been using Vivitar, Ricoh and Sears cameras and lenses since 1980. Sure the K-mount offers compatibility with legacy glass but with the high resolving capability of current sensors, these lenses are not likely to offer stellar optical performance. Many might will disagree with me on this point but I take the view that if you're buying a modern camera why be crippled with restricted functionality just because you got old MF lenses lying around.
Please look at my comment just prior to yours, where I suggest to lammie200 in the last line that he look at Alfred's, nparson13's and ibkc's K-01 photos that were taken with old manual lenses. You might also look at the 62 pages of images in the Off-Brand Club. It is just one of many old-manual-lens-with-DSLR clubs here on Pentax Forums. I studied all of those clubs every day for many months. They are very inspiring! Here is an especially impressive shot taken with a K100D and a nearly one-century-old lens.

Last edited by Welfl; 07-08-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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