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07-12-2012, 02:15 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
You got off lightly. I come from /p/.
I have no idea what that even means.

07-12-2012, 02:21 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote
I believe it needs to fire a pre-flash to meter before it decides on the ISO.

I never use Green mode since RAW isn't available, only jpeg.
Green mode works fine in RAW on the K-30 . I don't remember it not working on the K-r . I never shot in RAW with the K200D so I don't know if it did or not. Which camera does only JPEG for green mode ?

QuoteQuote:
Well, I switch it to Green mode sometimes if I'm handing the camera over to someone to take a picture or two.
Yes, I do the same.

QuoteQuote:
Have you tried using the flash in P mode?
Yes, as I wrote already, in P mode, it gets a much more more reasonable shutter speed, even though I didn't touch any of the dials . Ie. this is P mode + green button setting.
With P mode + green button, the K-30 doesn't try to guess the scene, so it doesn't select the "night portrait" mode and keeps the shutter speed reasonable.
07-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by gebco Quote
IF this is the default for green mode, I would suggest a lot of people buying a K-30 as their first DSLR will be dissatisfied.

I just tried a similar exercise in my K-x in a darkish room. No flash: 55mm, 1/40, f4.0, ISO 3200. With flash: 55mm, 1/40, f4.0, ISO 1600. So evidently the K-x is keeping a handholdable shutter speed.
Yes, that seems a lot more reasonable, your room is probably not as dark as mine was. This was a home theater room with no windows and walls painted dark brown, and only dim recessed lights were turned on so as to keep the projection screen watchable. However I was only shooting 5ft away from the CD shelf.

But even in the larger master bedroom which is painted pink, has high ceilings, and stronger recessed lights, the K-30 still made silly choices for shutter speed too, slower than 0.5" every time with flash popped up.

QuoteQuote:
I was just helping an acquaintance with their K-x recently. They had NO idea how it worked and used only green mode.
Sadly, I think that's true of many DSLR users of any brand. But sometimes even an experienced photographer can be short on time to set everything and wants to take a quick shot and use green mode.

QuoteQuote:
I would suggest that green mode needs to be programmed like a P&S, as this is how those using that mode will probably use it. A 1" shutter speed with flash will frustrate many.
Yes, sounds like P mode is preferable.
07-12-2012, 02:36 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kryscendo Quote
This isn't just Pentax with this sort of wonky Auto-mode. The Nikon D3100 and even the D5100 exhibit some pretty stupid behavior in terms of balancing Apterture, Shutter speed, and ISO.
I'm sure that is true. My Canon T3i didn't have this problem, though.

QuoteQuote:
There simply is no good way to program the camera to always have the correct balance so instead the manufacturer finds a "good enough" balance so the people using these cameras as point and shoots, they will not appear to notice.
Yes, I absolutely agree with that. There are always some compromises with auto-mode in some situations.

I'm going to venture a guess that people who use auto-mode probably don't ever want the camera to select a 1" shutter speed that requires the camera to be on a tripod, when there are plenty of other exposures that work by not lowering the ISO all the way down to 100 .
Lowering the shutter speed to keep more of the background in is one thing, but not at the cost of the entire picture being blurry and useless.

QuoteQuote:
You guys will seriously be shocked to learn how many people with sub-$1,000 DSLRs take them to Walgreens or CVS or whatever drug store to get the images printed.
I wouldn't be shocked. If it's convenient, economical, and the quality is good enough, why not ? I personally don't think it's convenient, but for sure it's more economical than at home in some places like Costco. I never tried so I don't know how good or bad the quality may be.

07-12-2012, 02:38 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Which camera does only JPEG for green mode ?
The K-5 doesn't record RAW files when in Green mode.

QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Yes, as I wrote already, in P mode, it gets a much more more reasonable shutter speed, even though I didn't touch any of the dials . Ie. this is P mode + green button setting. With P mode + green button, the K-30 doesn't try to guess the scene, so it doesn't select the "night portrait" mode and keeps the shutter speed reasonable.
Oops, I didn't catch that detail the firsts time around. In the menu you have different Program Lines to choose from that can be different from Auto. I think that the factory default is Normal for the Program Line.
12-10-2012, 05:50 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I got my blue K-30 delivered today. Just put in the strap. eneloops with the AA adapter that I already had, and the DA 18-250, and started taking a few pictures indoors, in lowlight, in green mode.

Pleasantly surprised to see that the flash did not automatically pop-up by default. Factory setting was auto ISO 100-3200 . It just raised the ISO and pictures were fine without the flash.

However, when I manually popped up the flash, the behavior was very strange : ISO was lowered dramatically, and the shutter speed decreased dramatically.

Without flash, at 18mm, I get f3.5, 1/15 and ISO 3200 .
With flash popped up, I get f3.5, 1" and ISO 100 ! 1" is not handholdable of course.
What's weird is that the viewfinder just shows "auto-ISO" when the flash is popped up, and don't see the actual ISO until after the shot is taken and I review it. If the flash is down, I see "3200" in the viewfinder.

I thought shutter speed was supposed to be 1/180 for flash ? So why is it 1" ?

This isn't making any sense to me, coming from the K200D and K-r.

I will post some shots with the EXIF.

When I look at the shots on the LCD in detailed mode, everything is the same except the ISO, shutter speed and the flash icon being absent or present.

The auto "scene" mode shows that "night scene" was selected for both.

Firmware is 1.00 .

User error or bug?
Good to hear that it's not just me that thinks this is strange behaviour from the camera.
I came from a K-x and it has never done this (dramatically increase shutter time), so i can't understand why Pentax has changed it to a setting that clearly doesn't work.

When I'm in auto mode and pop the flash up, it immediately changes the shutter speed to anything from 1/25 all the way up to 1". (I am just taking a picture of my bookcase - 3m away and with nothing in the distance that needs exposing). This means that I end up with consistently blurry images.

Yes I can go into manual settings and force the camera into a reasonable shutter speed from between 1/60 1/180 and end up with perfectly usable images.

But it's pointless to say "I shouldn't use auto" or "that's what manual settings are for", because I'm presenting the camera with a best case scenario for using the flash and one that it should be able to handle with ease, without reverting to manual especially when Pentax's previous cameras would take the picture with the correct settings.

I updated to a newer firmware 1.01 hoping that it would be fixed as I'm sure it's just a firmware issue. But it is still a problem.

I love the K-30 in every other area and this is the only problem I've encountered, I will live in hope that Pentax can sort the issue out in a future firmware release.
12-10-2012, 06:25 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I got my blue K-30 delivered today. Just put in the strap. eneloops with the AA adapter that I already had, and the DA 18-250, and started taking a few pictures indoors, in lowlight, in green mode.

Pleasantly surprised to see that the flash did not automatically pop-up by default. Factory setting was auto ISO 100-3200 . It just raised the ISO and pictures were fine without the flash.

However, when I manually popped up the flash, the behavior was very strange : ISO was lowered dramatically, and the shutter speed decreased dramatically.

Without flash, at 18mm, I get f3.5, 1/15 and ISO 3200 .
With flash popped up, I get f3.5, 1" and ISO 100 ! 1" is not handholdable of course.
What's weird is that the viewfinder just shows "auto-ISO" when the flash is popped up, and don't see the actual ISO until after the shot is taken and I review it. If the flash is down, I see "3200" in the viewfinder.

I thought shutter speed was supposed to be 1/180 for flash ? So why is it 1" ?

This isn't making any sense to me, coming from the K200D and K-r.

I will post some shots with the EXIF.

When I look at the shots on the LCD in detailed mode, everything is the same except the ISO, shutter speed and the flash icon being absent or present.

The auto "scene" mode shows that "night scene" was selected for both.

Firmware is 1.00 .

User error or bug?
It seems to work as it should. When using flash the camera use low ISO to minimize image noise, so Night Scene Portrait mode is best used with a tripod in very low light situations. If you want to use faster shutter speed with flash, use another mode.

This is how Pentax describes Night Scene Portrait mode in the K30 manual
"For capturing images of people in low light conditions, such as dusk or at night. Even though the flash is used, the camera will use slow shutter speeds so the background areas beyond the flash reach will also appear correctly exposed in the picture. To prevent camera shake, either turn on the Shake Reduction function, or mount the camera on a tripod."

Without flash the cameras has to use high ISO to get a short enough shutter speed to capture a portrait without blur, but a flash will capture the portrait without blur even with much longer shutter speed, so low ISO is used with flash.

Last edited by Fogel70; 12-10-2012 at 06:33 AM.
12-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
but a flash will capture the portrait without blur even with much longer shutter speed, so low ISO is used with flash.
Sorry but this is simply not true, when the flash is raised and the K-30 makes the shutter speed 1 second - you get plenty of blur, enough to make the image unusable.

12-10-2012, 09:24 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Green mode works fine in RAW on the K-30 . I don't remember it not working on the K-r . I never shot in RAW with the K200D so I don't know if it did or not. Which camera does only JPEG for green mode ?



Yes, I do the same.



Yes, as I wrote already, in P mode, it gets a much more more reasonable shutter speed, even though I didn't touch any of the dials . Ie. this is P mode + green button setting.
With P mode + green button, the K-30 doesn't try to guess the scene, so it doesn't select the "night portrait" mode and keeps the shutter speed reasonable.
Maybe the folks at Pentax are making a leap of faith but they seem to have concluded that the best flash pictures are ones that incorporate ambient light as well. I think that's correct.

But, here's where it gets tricky... when the user selects (green) Auto mode, the camera goes through algorithms to determine what kind of shot is being composed and selects the appropriate Scene mode for that shot. If it sees the flash popped up AND concludes that it's a Night scene being composed, it will go into flash mode for a Night scene. This is what causes the extra long exposure.

Note that not all low-light pictures with the flash up will be judged as Night scene pictures. To test, I just took one on my K-30 in (green) Auto mode and the camera choose to keep the same shutter speed (1/40 in this case) both with and without the flash up. Clearly, the camera's software determined that I didn't want a Night scene photo (which I didn't) and therefore didn't select a very long shutter time to capture background ambient light.

As others have suggested, it's better to shoot in P mode where you have a much more thorough understanding of what the camera is going to do and why.
12-10-2012, 09:43 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by graym3546 Quote
Good to hear that it's not just me that thinks this is strange behaviour from the camera.

Yes I can go into manual settings and force the camera into a reasonable shutter speed from between 1/60 – 1/180 and end up with perfectly usable images.
I agree, it's strange behaviour, but there is a solution that requires no compromise on your part. A number of people have advised not to use Green Mode, and that is the answer. Program (P mode), is a fully automatic setting. The differences between it and Green mode are that it allows you to do some things that Green mode doesn't, but it is not what anyone would call a manual mode. Everything is completely automatic, you don't have to make any decisions. It is to your benefit to learn enough that you can take better photos than any auto mode, but you don't have to learn anything if you don't want to. Just take the advice, give up on Green Mode and set the dial to P.
12-10-2012, 09:56 AM   #26
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One more point to add: the (green) Auto mode could also be called Automatic Scene Selection Mode. From the manual pg 63:

"When set to AUTO mode, the optimal capture mode is automatically selected from Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Macro, Moving Object, Night Scene Portrait (my emphasis), Sunset, Blue Sky, or Forest."
12-10-2012, 10:33 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by graym3546 Quote
Sorry but this is simply not true, when the flash is raised and the K-30 makes the shutter speed 1 second - you get plenty of blur, enough to make the image unusable.
Yes you can, but it depends on the mix of flash and ambient that lights the face you want portrait.

Here is a crop of a self-portrait I just made with in mixed lighting with my K7 in my hands stretched out in front of me.
Shutter speed 5s, Aperture f/3.5 and ISO 100. I used longer than necessary shutter speed so there is a bit to much ambient light hitting my face.
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12-10-2012, 11:00 AM   #28
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Practical experience

AUTO (green) mode starts near settings of P mode.

That's my solution:
- choose P mode
- set ISO to AUTO (ISO100 - ISO6400) and shutter speed for example to 1/80s
- push the flash button and change to AUTO (green) mode.

AUTO (green) mode then will start with fast aperture and moderate shutter speed (e. g. 1/25s). In this circumstances shutter speed depends on focal length.
12-10-2012, 11:03 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopsing Quote
AUTO (green) mode starts near settings of P mode.

That's my solution:
- choose P mode
- set ISO to AUTO (ISO100 - ISO6400) and shutter speed for example to 1/80s
- push the flash button and change to AUTO (green) mode.

AUTO (green) mode then will start with fast aperture and moderate shutter speed (e. g. 1/25s). In this circumstances shutter speed depends on focal length.
Why bother changing the dial to Green mode, why not just shoot in P mode? I don't understand what you're trying to achieve.
12-10-2012, 03:58 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Yes you can, but it depends on the mix of flash and ambient that lights the face you want portrait.

Here is a crop of a self-portrait I just made with in mixed lighting with my K7 in my hands stretched out in front of me.
Shutter speed 5s, Aperture f/3.5 and ISO 100. I used longer than necessary shutter speed so there is a bit to much ambient light hitting my face.
You must have very steady hands to get a picture like that with a 5 second shutter speed.
My photos with the flash look like this.
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