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07-18-2012, 08:53 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Curiously, the K-5's "Value" rating is a 10, whereas the K-30's "Value" rating is "only" a 9.

Also funny, both get a 9 for build quality, although the K-5 has clearly a better construction and (according to a user report) also feels higher grade when handling (-> dials).

Both cameras get a 9 for ergonomics/handling, even though the K-5 has more hardware controls and a top-LCD.

The K-30's AF rating is better by one point but the only supporting evidence is subjective. I'm not saying that there is no AF improvement, but the K-30 report does not unambiguously determine an advancement.

Finally, how is the K-30's user interface better by one full point?

In summary, I do not think that the numerical win on points by the K-30 is justified at all. The (incomplete, e.g., shutter noise) list of K-5 advantages ("Missing or Removed Features") does not seem to have influenced the numerical scores, even though it contains some features that could mean all the difference for certain photographers.

I can understand the enthusiasm for the K-30 which clearly is a great camera for its class. But what is the point of overselling it?
I don't think it will pay any dividends for Adam and I to get defensive about these things, but I'll say this:

I think your mistake here is assuming that the K-30's scores were derived solely from a comparison with the K-5. In my understanding, the ratings on this site are calculated in part against the "internal" competition, but in larger part against the broader expectations of the camera type and class. For a camera in this price range (half the MSRP of the K-5) and with this target demographic (mid-range), I think the build quality, ergonomics, and so on are near-perfect. You're right, for instance, in saying that the K-30 is inferior to the K-5 in terms of ergonomics and build quality, but compared to many other mid-range dSLRs, it's quite a knockout.

I understand that doing the scoring in that way might be confusing since the majority of the review is spent comparing the K-30 to the K-5 and K-01, but that's how it made the most sense to us to do it. For clarity's sake, it definitely might be a good thing for PF to put out a rationale for how scoring is determined, though.

Anyway, I don't think the 8.9 rating oversells anything. The K-30 earned it.

07-18-2012, 09:07 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I think your mistake here is assuming that the K-30's scores were derived solely from a comparison with the K-5.
In the absence of any mentioning of ratings being performed relative to a camera's class and the prominent "BEST Pentax DSLR to Date", I believe I shall be forgiven for making the assumption that both cameras were judged according to the same criteria/standards.

QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Anyway, I don't think the 8.9 rating oversells anything.
I agree if the K-30's "8.9" are not compared to the K-5's "8.3". However, there is nothing that tells me I shouldn't make the comparison. On the contrary.
07-18-2012, 09:20 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
In the absence of any mentioning of ratings being performed relative to a camera's class and the prominent "BEST Pentax DSLR to Date", I believe I shall be forgiven for making the assumption that both cameras were judged according to the same criteria/standards.

I agree if the K-30's "8.9" are not compared to the K-5's "8.3". However, there is nothing that tells me I shouldn't make the comparison. On the contrary.
I don't have any qualms about saying the K-30 is the best Pentax dSLR to date. The K-30 is a better overall camera than the K-5 (just barely), and the best overall package from Pentax thus far, though there are certainly places where the K-5 has the upper hand (and also many where the K-30 does). The fact that it's still such a close fight between them in many areas, with nearly two years of development having passed, is testimony to how good the K-5 was. I also think the K-3 will set another new standard, as I mentioned earlier, unless the 24mp sensor blows or there's some other unforeseen disaster.
07-18-2012, 11:52 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
The K-30 is a better overall camera than the K-5 (just barely)...
You simply cannot say that.

The K-5 has the edge regarding certain features that may be of utmost importance to some people. Just take the shutter noise (street photography), the battery grip option (portrait shooters and shooters needing the extended battery life), or the much more efficient sensor cleaning (outdoor usage).

No way, can the K-30 be the "better" camera for the above shooters.

It is furthermore debatable which weighting of which features should be used to determine which of the two cameras is "the best".

I generally do not believe in the notion of a single "best" camera for everyone hence I do not believe one should even attempt to produce such a ranking. However, if one must do it, then one should try to be as fair as possible.

I doubt that a weighting of advantages / disadvantages is fair that has the K-30 come out as the better camera (where "better" typically is a price-independent property and "value for money" is a different property).

07-19-2012, 12:19 AM   #65
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We can argue specific usage cases 'til the cows come home, though I have to say I don't think the differences in either the shutter noise or sensor cleaning efficiency are really that big a deal (particularly the last one... my K-5 gets dust on the sensor with some frequency despite its supposedly more advanced system). To say that a K-30 could never be the "better" choice for a given street shooter because of its marginally louder shutter noise (ignoring all of its other qualities) is just silliness. Is the K-30's more reliable everyday AF (I know, I know... no statistical proof!) not a more important edge than shutter noise?

You seem to be set in your opinion (you're certainly welcome to it) and I'm pretty much set in mine, so I'm going to disengage myself from this debate now. That said, I'll be interested to hear what you think about it once you've had the chance to actually handle one yourself.

p.s., I really do appreciate your (rabid) interest in the review and the credibility of the site as a whole. Criticism only makes for a stronger product, whether you agree with it or not.

Last edited by deadwolfbones; 07-19-2012 at 12:26 AM.
07-19-2012, 01:47 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I don't have any qualms about saying the K-30 is the best Pentax dSLR to date. The K-30 is a better overall camera than the K-5 (just barely), and the best overall package from Pentax thus far, though there are certainly places where the K-5 has the upper hand (and also many where the K-30 does). The fact that it's still such a close fight between them in many areas, with nearly two years of development having passed, is testimony to how good the K-5 was. I also think the K-3 will set another new standard, as I mentioned earlier, unless the 24mp sensor blows or there's some other unforeseen disaster.
I tend to agree that the K-30 is the best DSLR from Pentax to date. I simply love my K-5 even though I have had some focus issues and it is now in for a service to remedy them. The K-30 is really a surprise package. I thought that not having a display on top of the camera would have been a turn off as was the case with the Kx which I sold soon after purchase.
I've only had mine for two days but I am simply blown away by its performance and not to mention value for money. If this is any indication of what's install for us with the K-3 then I cannot wait for its release.

Neil
07-19-2012, 03:43 AM   #67
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This thread is plainly getting ridiculous

The review can be summarised as saying:

"In the opinion of the reviewer, and by proxy, Pentax Forums, based on our methodologies, we believe this to be the best Pentax SLR to date"

I'm not really sure how Class A wants a quantitative measurement of some items e.g. ergonomics, which simply arn't available.

In addition, any review is likely to take a middle ground, unless the reviewer is a specialist in a particular area and reviewing with that in mind. Therefore, obviously the camera may rate higher or lower for you depending on what you want it for.

For example, 90% of the population buying 4x4s/SUVs will not go offroad (perhaps with the exception of parking in a field at some kind of event). Accordingly, 90% of the reviews will bias towards this, and evaluate comfort, economy, road handling etc. The 10% remaining will have different requirements, and therefore, may not value so highly the items the reviewer has used to make their opinions. They instead seek out opinions of the 10% (referential marketing) being they reviews, user evals etc.

Accordingly, the reviewer here is not wrong, they have simply proposed an opinion based on their usage, in comparison to other devices they have used. They have also clearly stated their methodology, and where they are stating from their qualitative opinion, as well as from quantitative sources.
07-19-2012, 04:07 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam G Quote
Very nice review. Just a few linking issues to patch up:


K-30, Recovered RAW, -5EV:
Thumbnail attempts to link to https://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/3384/519/large/K30_-3EV_RAW.JPG
Wrong EV, and in any case, the file doesn't exist. (Case-sensitive: *.JPG doesn't work, *.jpg does.)

K-5, Recovered RAW, -5EV:
Similarly, thumbnail attempts to link to https://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/3384/519/large/K5_-3EV_RAW.JPG


K-30, Recovered RAW, -3EV:
Thumbnail links to a K-5 image. The View Full Size text below the thumbnail is fine.


There may be more I've missed.
Thanks for catching these - I've now fixed them.


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07-19-2012, 05:38 AM   #69
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To understand what I think deadwolfbones meant by calling the K-30 the best Pentax DSLR to date, just say this and it will make sense: the Pentax K-x is also one of the best DSLRs Pentax has ever made.

For example, based on when it was released and its price range I'd say the K-x was better than the K-r and the K-7. Was the K-x better than either of those two cameras in actuality? On the whole, I don't think so. Was it a great camera that punched way above its entry-level weight class in certain respects when it was released? Yes. Did it provide a ray of light when people were angry about aspects of the K-7? Yes. Is it still a pretty damn good camera even today? Yes. That's why the K-x is up there with the K-5, the K10D, the 645D, etc., as some of the better products Pentax has made in the last 10 years even though it is an entry-level camera.

Conversely, I think a product like the Pentax Q would have been much more warmly received if it had been launched at its current price rather than its almost DSLR level launch price.

I bought the K-30 based on DWB's review since I needed a second camera for wedding/photojournalism. Do I expect it to be better than the K-5? Not in all respects. I expect it to be a pleasant surprise for the price like my K-x was; a solid all-around performer with some limitations; an evolutionary improvement to SAFOX PDAF and CDAF, not a revolutionary one I'd hope to see from the K-3, whether it is full frame, or APS-C, or whatever.

The K-3 (or whatever it is called) is the camera that will have to blow the K-5 out of the water. Why? Because I'm guessing it may cost $1,600 or more. That better be pretty good to convince a lot of K-5 (and now K-30) owners to switch or add it to their arsenal. The bar has been set pretty damn high for that camera and what comes next.
07-22-2012, 02:10 AM   #70
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Thanks for the great review! BTW I think something great is coming soon for the K-30...
07-22-2012, 02:18 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
the Pentax K-x is also one of the best DSLRs Pentax has ever made.
I second this too. Not because I have one, but well, really, because back in 2009, it sorta punched Canikon's D3000 and 1000D in the face. The 550D was only slightly better.
07-22-2012, 02:31 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
The K-30 is a better overall camera than the K-5 (just barely), and the best overall package from Pentax thus far
I agree...

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
You simply cannot say that.
Hmmm, why can't he?
Take it from a K-5 user like myself... the K-30 is better (where it counts).

Perhaps you should actually use the K-5 and the K-30 and experience it firsthand, that would give your comments some credibility and weight.
Both are quite a bit step up over your K100D.
07-22-2012, 03:18 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Hmmm, why can't he?
He cannot because the cameras are different and to an individual either the K-30's or the K-5's respective advantages may matter more.

There is no such thing as "the best" camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Take it from a K-5 user like myself... the K-30 is better (where it counts).
Where it counts for you. People are different.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Perhaps you should actually use the K-5 and the K-30 and experience it firsthand, that would give your comments some credibility and weight.
I trust the users that write that focus peaking is working fine on the K-30 and I trust users that say that the K-5's shutter is much quieter, etc., etc. Are you saying I should not trust these reports?
07-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #74
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A good review and some interesting things being brought out in the comments.
Picked up my K30 body from Ryda in Sydney yesterday for $750 cash price, which is currently better than B&H's.
So now I have my K20D bought in 2008
K-01 bought from Ryda in May and now
the K30.
The decision to buy the K30 was based on the features and IQ of the K-01, but lack of ELF was proving too frustrating in my case.
Will do a comparative test of all 3 cameras with same lens Tamron 18~250 on the weekend. After that, plan is to keep the K30 only.
08-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #75
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