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09-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #46
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С1 - I use C1 (6.3) with my K-5's DNG for 1 year. I think you need to refresh your version of C1 Pro to use K-30's DNG.

My old ACR with Photoshop CS5 opens K-30's DNG without any problem. I converted samples of K-30 with Adobe Camera Raw - it works even better with sharp tools than C1 Pro.

09-03-2012, 09:14 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
So what do we have so far:

- DxO (full K-30 DNG support)
- Lightroom 4.2 RC (RC but fully functional K-30 DNG support)
- Silkypix as supplied with camera

Still to come:

- C1
- Aftershot Pro (but they have done K-01 )
- Aperture (Mac)
- RawTherapee
- others like dcraw, Darktable etc

So far DNG progress is not too bad.
DNG from the K30 even work in lgihtroom 1 and photoshop CS1 so adobe support is good.
It are the programs that dont use the camera-profile inside the DNG that need to have specific support.
09-03-2012, 02:41 PM   #48
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Linux users will be pleased to note that the K30 DNG RAWs work well in RawTherapee and Digikam. Actually - the left-click "default open", until changed to RawTherapee - is DarkTable, which is much of a 'work-in-progress', at present.

What was indeed a surprise was that unlike the HS10's RAWs, the K30's RAWs do show in "Preview" in Dolphin - the embedded thumbnail JPEGs, I think (?) - so, if the size-slider is pushed to the far right, the previews show as about 4.5" x 3" (19" screen) - which is enough (at least for hamfisted folk like me) - to see if the shot is worth processing. With the HS10 I was having to shoot RAW + JPEG, as the RAWs didn't Preview.

I installed DarkTable to see if it would get any more out of the Fuji HS10's RAWs - it doesn't. However, the K30's 'proper' RAWs have so vastly much more information than the HS10's, that I'm having to learn again how to work with them.

Regards, Dave.

Last edited by exwintech; 09-03-2012 at 03:12 PM.
09-05-2012, 09:17 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
DNG from the K30 even work in lgihtroom 1 and photoshop CS1 so adobe support is good.
It are the programs that dont use the camera-profile inside the DNG that need to have specific support.
I think that definitions like "Full", "Good", "Partial" or "No" DNG support of RAW rendering/editor SW can be misleading or can be a subjective impression.
If the colors are totally wrong it might be clear, but if there is a slight brightness or color difference it is difficult to check for end users.
And it can happen, that after a SW update the SW rendering result (not only color) of a specific DNG is dramatically improved.

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr:
So what do we have so far:
...(snip)
- Silkypix as supplied with camera

Still to come:
...(snip)
- others like dcraw, Darktable etc
...
I used also IDimager (which is based on dcraw) and the result (JPG preview vs rendered RAW data of DNG file) looks quite ok (DNGs are only a little bit darker).
Can you tell just from this, that DCRAW does not (or does or does fully) support K-30 DNGs?

With Silkypix Pentax version the result is very dependant on the various options of DNG or other color profiles which can be selected in Silkypix settings.
And the original K-30 JPGs always look different than the displayed DNG files with all tools.
Of course we do not know what kind of internal RAW2JPG processing is taking place in the K-30. May be such JPG to DNG comparision does not make sense?


Last edited by Plentax; 09-05-2012 at 09:40 AM.
09-05-2012, 10:01 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Plentax Quote
I think that definitions like "Full", "Good", "Partial" or "No" DNG support of RAW rendering/editor SW can be misleading or can be a subjective impression.
If the colors are totally wrong it might be clear, but if there is a slight brightness or color difference it is difficult to check for end users.
And it can happen, that after a SW update the SW rendering result (not only color) of a specific DNG is dramatically improved.
SW?

Anyway the Adobe products use the embedded profile when none is in his own library so there might indeed be a colour difference between the two but both profiles are correct though and specially made for the camera.
You can actually change the profile within Adobe Camera Raw (lightroom) you can chose between Adobe profile or Embedded.

The greens is mostly different and sometimes the skin tones so sometimes i play with it a bit to see which profile i like the most, most of the time i actually chose embedded.
09-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Plentax Quote
Can you tell just from this, that DCRAW does not (or does or does fully) support K-30 DNGs?
All I was doing was looking at the camera list on the dcraw home page, where there is no K-30 yet.

But of course dcraw supports DNG already.

So where it becomes confusing is, as you say in your post, whether the K-30 DNG's will be read by dcraw out of the box and look beautiful and optimised, or whether the DNG parsing by dcraw needs to be tuned for the specific properties of every new camera body that comes along and outputs DNG.

That is to ask: while dcraw optimises it's output for every new camera body that supports PEF or NEF or ARW or CR2, does that mean it never optimises it's DNG engine for every new camera body that outputs DNG?

It looks to me that dcraw's DNG support means that the basics are there for reading and writing K-30 DNG's, but that producing optimised output may not be dcraw's job anymore if you use DNG. I could be wrong, since I don't really follow dcraw.
09-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #52
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Yes and thank you for your interpretation which sounds very reasonable. Apparently most software seems to interpreting DNG quite ok independant of manufacturer. But PhaseOne Rendering Engine has perhaps two multiple. First it does not interprete DNG profiles (Is this really the case?). Second, it interpretes (some) DNG files wrong as long as no official support is provided through updates. This affects also MediaPro from PhaseOne, when P1 rendering engine is selected with this DAM. The additional lack of lens profiles in C1 makes Lightroom even more attrractive for new camera models.

As promised I tried with photo shots of x-rite under more defined conditions to repeat my generation of ICC profile generation to be used in CaptureOne (C1). However I was not really successfull with it. The resulting ICM files lead in C1 to more or less the same result as my rough initial trial. My steps are as follows:
  1. Take photos of X-rite ColorChecker 24 patch with my K-30 (DNG and JPG)
  2. Open original DNG file (with wrong colors) in C1
  3. Select "ICC Profile" and "Curve" in the "BaseCharacteristics". I tried various ICC Profiles from "DNG File DNG Workspace" over "DNG File Neutral" to "No color correction". I tried also "Curve" with "Linear Response" and "Film Standard". There is an impact of these settings, which I do not fully understand, but mainly on the brightness of images at point 9
  4. Keep White Balance as Mode "shot"
  5. Process with C1to the uncompressed TIFF output with 8 bit and sRGB IEC61966-2.1
  6. Start of the free ICC Color Camera Calibrator named "CoCa" available at http://www.dohm.com.au/coca
  7. Open the TIF file in CoCa. Configure correct settings and create a new ICC profile, which is a ICM file in directory C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color\...
  8. Start C1, open DNG file and select the new ICC Profile available under point "Other..."
  9. Enjoy K-30 images in C1 which are much more looking like the original JPG
Please find here a screenshot from CaptureOne with five images:
  1. Original DNG from K-30 (wrong colors)
  2. Original JPG from K-30 (correct colors)
  3. Exported TIF with C1 (does look of course identical to 1)
  4. Copy of 1 with just my first trial ICC profile on it and no other modifications (does look quite ok)
  5. Copy of 1 with another trial ICC profile (not really better than 4 - does look only brighter)

(this and the other K-30 files located at: www.ey-com.de/captureone/k-30/ )

In summary I am now a little bit dissappointed and exhausted with my DNG format workflow of K-30 files. I had big expectations on DNG compatibility. May be I also make some mistakes as newbie with C1. Perhaps it is wise just to wait for C1 update before spending more effort?

Last edited by Plentax; 09-07-2012 at 01:54 AM.
09-06-2012, 02:04 PM   #53
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I use adobe CS4 for raw files from the K5. Oddly it shrinks the files when turned to jpgs so I tend to render them as TIFFs and finish development in Capture NX2 and convert the tiffs to jpg from there. Adobe gives around 4 to 6 mb files capture Nx gives me 13-16mb files the same as I get if I shoot in camera jpgs. The most annoying thing is not being able to view on windows. Adobe now has a codec that works fine BUT you need at least windows 7. I does not work with vista even with service pack two installed. I am on windows 7 now in the studio ( thank god ) but my laptop is vista still. I have to work in adobe bridge on my laptop. Trouble is.... you cant send them to capture NX2 from there, so its a pain in the neck. At least its now sorted in the studio. Why adobe can not release a codec for vista... god only knows... most frustrating.

09-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #54
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Which image file format/extension can't you display in Windows Vista? I am using FastPictureViewerCodec which is not too expensive (15 EUR) and supports with high performacne really a lot of RAW and other files. See www.fastpictureviewer.com This codec does also support a lot of other windows software which is based on WIC (Windows Imaging Component).

Last edited by Plentax; 09-06-2012 at 02:26 PM.
09-06-2012, 02:33 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Plentax Quote
Which image file format/extension can't you display in Windows Vista? I am using FastPictureViewerCodec which is not too expensive (15 EUR) and supports with high performacne really a lot of RAW and other files. See www.fastpictureviewer.com This codec does also support a lot of other windows software which is based on WIC (Windows Imaging Component).
Thank you for that. It looks like a good program. Does it allow you to open your pics in any program ? such as CS4 or CaptureNX2 etc etc etc
09-06-2012, 02:35 PM   #56
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To my knowledge FPVC Pack is only about display of previews and not importing files. You can configure for example display of embedded preview (fast) or the rendered raw display (slow) of DNG files. May be I am wrong, but thumbnail display in file manager and MediaPro of TrueTypeFonts, Video, RAW, DNG, ... files is my key purpose with it.

Has your topic to do with K-30 and the DNG topic of this thread?

Last edited by Plentax; 09-06-2012 at 02:44 PM.
09-07-2012, 08:39 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Plentax Quote
To my knowledge FPVC Pack is only about display of previews and not importing files. You can configure for example display of embedded preview (fast) or the rendered raw display (slow) of DNG files. May be I am wrong, but thumbnail display in file manager and MediaPro of TrueTypeFonts, Video, RAW, DNG, ... files is my key purpose with it.

Has your topic to do with K-30 and the DNG topic of this thread?
Can you download your ICC profile somewhere?
09-08-2012, 03:38 PM   #58
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You find three ICC profiles (ICM files) for download at: www.ey-com.de/captureone/k-30/ but only "pentax_k-30_tungsten-c1-wrong.icm" looks more ore less ok for the DNG files from K-30. As described in previous postings I am not really sure about correct settings of C1 (CaptureOne) for DNG2TIF conversion of my color card shots. Regardless off different brightness with my other ICC profile trials some color deviation seems to be not correctable.

Last edited by Plentax; 09-26-2012 at 05:57 AM.
09-26-2012, 06:05 AM   #59
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I found out that C1 does not show local adjustments, when such ICM profile is applied. The adjustments are performed, but are no longer visible. Looks like a bug either with C1 or with the ICM profile? Ticket at C1 was submitted and solution is still pending.

The support of DNGs from K-30 seems to have no priority at all for Phaseone. So I am looking for another way to convert DNG2TIFF and process the TIFFs in C1. Does anybody know which which tool and file format (PNG-24, TIFF-32, ...?) is best for this conversion process. K-20 DNGs are 12 bit and I don't want to waste bits if not needed.

Another issue is the very very different support of original DNG (with embedded full preview) and converted DNGs in various software tools. I converted with AdobeDNGConverter to 3 DNG variants: with no, with medium and with full resolution preview. Various DAM tools and image processors create the screen or any export file format either from preview or from original raw content. The results are heavily depending from software settings (WIC, no WIC, FPVC, DCRAW, ...) and also from windows operation system.

Seems like we have to wait very long for full and absolutely defined support of DNG in image software. A new camera like K-30 creates additional risks for users on top of the already limitations with DNG. (e.g.: Try to open K-30 DNGs in AfterShotPro -> nothing happens at all).
09-26-2012, 09:03 AM   #60
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On my monitor, the icc_2 profile in your comparsion shot is the only one that comes close to reality, especially with the yellows.
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