K-30 Studio Samples Just Posted!

CyberManiaK · 08-29-2012, 11:08 PM

So, not only me is the one that sees that even for RAW there is NR Applied... but I ask again why Pentax do this ? Certainly theyknow how to do it. Because is very well controlled but at the end they not deliver plain RAW files.. so here are cooked Raws

On the saturation part.. I think could be to not get channels very quick saturated and then the clipping starts.

wahid_satu · 08-30-2012, 12:09 AM

It's very difficult to clean up noisy high iso images. I don't really know, but I guess it is better to do NR at very low level (on the data stream itself) rather than on the raw/jpg/tiff files. So pentax (correctly) decided to do it, because we can't do better.

Why hate cooked raws if the final images look better than uncooked? Or do you have other preferences, Cyber?

c-meier · 08-30-2012, 01:33 AM

I just ordered a K-30 two hours ago, after an agonizing week trying to decide between it and the K-5. I chose the K-30, because it was only $1000.44 with the 18-135WR, but now I have found another reason to be glad I did!

Anyways, on the topic of cooked raws: I don't know the schematics of the K-30, but from studying the internals of other cameras, I believe there is no such thing as straight-from-the-sensor raws. Remember, the sensor is connected to an ADC. This specialized chip, which pentax calls "PRIME", quickly samples the sensor data at bitdepths of 20 to 24 bits per cell. Some simple math is done (e.g. applying gamma curves, interpolate dead pixels, controlling "blooming") and then spits out the "raw" at 12 or 14 bits. That is, all RAWs are pre-processed, and, I can only speculate, but it would make sense to do some of the noise reduction on the > 20 bit data.

I might be wrong with this, but that's my impression.

DSims · 08-30-2012, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by c-meier

I just ordered a K-30 two hours ago, after an agonizing week trying to decide between it and the K-5. I chose the K-30, because it was only $1000.44 with the 18-135WR, but now I have found another reason to be glad I did!

Sounds like you did well. I have the K-5, but would choose the K-30 today. I wouldn't mind getting an 18-135 for only about $200 more either!

c-meier · 08-30-2012, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by DSims

Sounds like you did well. I have the K-5, but would choose the K-30 today.

Yes. I was only a little concerned I might miss the metering mode and AF point selection switches, but from online reviews it doesn't seem that complicated to access those functions, after all. Oh, the video "jelly effect" had me a bit worried, too... but then again, the reports seem a bit exaggerated, and I don't do much video anyways.

Originally posted by DSims

I wouldn't mind getting an 18-135 for only about $200 more either!

Yep. I don't really know how it happened, but I had added the camera to my amazon cart at about $1200, and a few days later it had dropped to $1000 (but listing still showed $1139). The only explanation I have, is that the price dropped while I wasn't looking and amazon dropped the price of the item in my cart, but then didn't raise it again.

I won't complain, of course

DSims · 08-30-2012, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by c-meier

Yep. I don't really know how it happened, but I had added the camera to my amazon cart at about $1200, and a few days later it had dropped to $1000 (but listing still showed $1139). The only explanation I have, is that the price dropped while I wasn't looking and amazon dropped the price of the item in my cart, but then didn't raise it again.

I won't complain, of course

Yes, I love it when something like that happens!

CyberManiaK · 08-30-2012, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by wahid_satu

It's very difficult to clean up noisy high iso images. I don't really know, but I guess it is better to do NR at very low level (on the data stream itself) rather than on the raw/jpg/tiff files. So pentax (correctly) decided to do it, because we can't do better.

Why hate cooked raws if the final images look better than uncooked? Or do you have other preferences, Cyber?

I agree Pentax did a good job on how they clean the Raw, however I tend to believe that when NR is applied at the core level that way, tends to loose some detail. And also for me I like to clean my images. Here is one testing ISO 6400 from my current camera
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/7782905264_b945e41101_o.jpg
ISO:6400, 135mm F5.6, Shutter: 1/8

c-meier I'm pretty sure you will not regret, the K30 is showing some nice stuff under the housing !!

wahid_satu · 08-31-2012, 06:10 AM

Can't say I agree with you; at first, based on what I got from my preferred photo processing software. I took another look at DPR's JPEGs (from the cameras or lightroom) and arrive at the same conclusion. There is more detail on K-30's images.

Attached are two other comparison of DPRs raw, 100% crop. Now it's the 60D against the K-30. Again, processed using darktable, one without PPs the other with only 50% Luminance NR and 100% Chroma NR applied on both images.

Without PPs, there is simply more detail on the K-30's image. Same thing with some NRs applied, the 60D's don't get cleaner or detailed, it just get blurred. On both comparisons, the K-30 wins. The K-30's saturation right after demosaicing is still strange though, maybe I'll do comparisons with color corrections, next time.

Your NR software can probably do better cleaning than this, but I think if it can clean 60D's image that good, the K-30's will be even better. Perhaps you can do some comparison as I did?

LeDave · 08-31-2012, 09:13 AM

Beautiful! The K-30 has one heck of a processor! Pentax really developed their processor to work well with the Sony sensors. Even better than the bigger money Nikon. Pentax engineers ftw! Now if only better AF can be had =P

Alizarine · 09-03-2012, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Tarola

Pentax k-30 is the fkn best!! Beats d7000 and nex 7 yeahhh!

Seems very enthusiastic there

I remember being like this when my K-x trumped almost everything the 1000D and D3000 could during their days...

Originally posted by LeDave

Pentax engineers ftw! Now if only better AF can be had =P

I second this voice

rawr · 09-19-2012, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by c-meier

I believe there is no such thing as straight-from-the-sensor raws. Remember, the sensor is connected to an ADC. This specialized chip, which pentax calls "PRIME", quickly samples the sensor data at bitdepths of 20 to 24 bits per cell. Some simple math is done (e.g. applying gamma curves, interpolate dead pixels, controlling "blooming") and then spits out the "raw" at 12 or 14 bits. That is, all RAWs are pre-processed, and, I can only speculate, but it would make sense to do some of the noise reduction on the > 20 bit data.
I might be wrong with this, but that's my impression.

You are of course 100% correct. This is a subject that has been discussed many times in these forums and elsewhere for different cameras. RAW data is fundamentally not 'untouched by the camera' on any model DSLR. The amount of processing along the way from image capture to storage within the camera is all just a matter of degree.

Originally posted by wahid_satu

There is more detail on K-30's images.

I agree too. Visually the detail is quite apparent. The photoreview.com.au K-30 IMATEST resolution tests charts agree as well.

This is not to say that the K-30 results aren't perfect, but Pentax have done a good enough job in getting the balance right between RAW tweaking and preserving detail.

**Fastback67** · 09-20-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by wahid_satu

What I find a little strange is how much less saturated the colors are on the K-30 right out of demaosaicing.

I see a lot of folks here with similar statements here... Myself, I have no problem with a little less saturation in the initial image. It seems like many cameras today purposely oversaturate images for that crowd pleasing Wow factor.

Just give me a sharp image, and I'll take care of the rest.

**jbinpg** · 09-21-2012, 11:21 AM

Which profile are you using in darktable, the natural or Enhanced Matrix? The EM is equivalent to the bright setting of the K-5 which is punchier.

Jack

wahid_satu · 09-21-2012, 03:41 PM

The input color profile of the K-30, you mean? Well, I think we are on to something here, Jack.

On the K-30 and the K-01 DNGs, I can't set it to natural or enhanced color matrix. I can only choose the sRGB, Adobe RGB and Linear RGB; and the program automatically chose sRGB. On every other raws, the canons, nikons, or the K-5's DNGs, I can set it to natural or enhanced. When set the K-5's to linear RGB I get similar desaturated look as the K-30 image I posted.

Have you got any ideas about this?

**jbinpg** · 09-21-2012, 06:10 PM

Yes, sorry, I meant input color profile. I am on stable darktable version 1.05 and I can select either standard or enhanced matrix for my K-5 PEFs. Perhaps that is the difference - they are only available for the PEF format? If you want a really desaturated look, pick the linear RGB profile

Jack

08-31-2012, 06:10 AM	#38
wahid_satu Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery Posts: 96	Can't say I agree with you; at first, based on what I got from my preferred photo processing software. I took another look at DPR's JPEGs (from the cameras or lightroom) and arrive at the same conclusion. There is more detail on K-30's images. Attached are two other comparison of DPRs raw, 100% crop. Now it's the 60D against the K-30. Again, processed using darktable, one without PPs the other with only 50% Luminance NR and 100% Chroma NR applied on both images. Without PPs, there is simply more detail on the K-30's image. Same thing with some NRs applied, the 60D's don't get cleaner or detailed, it just get blurred. On both comparisons, the K-30 wins. The K-30's saturation right after demosaicing is still strange though, maybe I'll do comparisons with color corrections, next time. Your NR software can probably do better cleaning than this, but I think if it can clean 60D's image that good, the K-30's will be even better. Perhaps you can do some comparison as I did? Attached Images

09-20-2012, 04:45 PM	#42
Fastback67 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: New Hampshire, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 348	Originally posted by wahid_satu What I find a little strange is how much less saturated the colors are on the K-30 right out of demaosaicing. I see a lot of folks here with similar statements here... Myself, I have no problem with a little less saturation in the initial image. It seems like many cameras today purposely oversaturate images for that crowd pleasing Wow factor. Just give me a sharp image, and I'll take care of the rest. Last edited by Fastback67; 09-21-2012 at 04:49 PM.

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08-29-2012, 11:08 PM	#31
CyberManiaK Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 44	So, not only me is the one that sees that even for RAW there is NR Applied... but I ask again why Pentax do this ? Certainly theyknow how to do it. Because is very well controlled but at the end they not deliver plain RAW files.. so here are cooked Raws On the saturation part.. I think could be to not get channels very quick saturated and then the clipping starts.

08-30-2012, 12:09 AM	#32
wahid_satu Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery Posts: 96	It's very difficult to clean up noisy high iso images. I don't really know, but I guess it is better to do NR at very low level (on the data stream itself) rather than on the raw/jpg/tiff files. So pentax (correctly) decided to do it, because we can't do better. Why hate cooked raws if the final images look better than uncooked? Or do you have other preferences, Cyber?

08-30-2012, 01:33 AM	#33
c-meier Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Concepción, Chile Posts: 128	I just ordered a K-30 two hours ago, after an agonizing week trying to decide between it and the K-5. I chose the K-30, because it was only $1000.44 with the 18-135WR, but now I have found another reason to be glad I did! Anyways, on the topic of cooked raws: I don't know the schematics of the K-30, but from studying the internals of other cameras, I believe there is no such thing as straight-from-the-sensor raws. Remember, the sensor is connected to an ADC. This specialized chip, which pentax calls "PRIME", quickly samples the sensor data at bitdepths of 20 to 24 bits per cell. Some simple math is done (e.g. applying gamma curves, interpolate dead pixels, controlling "blooming") and then spits out the "raw" at 12 or 14 bits. That is, all RAWs are pre-processed, and, I can only speculate, but it would make sense to do some of the noise reduction on the > 20 bit data. I might be wrong with this, but that's my impression.

08-30-2012, 01:43 AM	#34
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236 Original Poster	Originally posted by c-meier I just ordered a K-30 two hours ago, after an agonizing week trying to decide between it and the K-5. I chose the K-30, because it was only $1000.44 with the 18-135WR, but now I have found another reason to be glad I did! Sounds like you did well. I have the K-5, but would choose the K-30 today. I wouldn't mind getting an 18-135 for only about $200 more either!

08-30-2012, 02:27 AM	#35
c-meier Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Concepción, Chile Posts: 128	Originally posted by DSims Sounds like you did well. I have the K-5, but would choose the K-30 today. Yes. I was only a little concerned I might miss the metering mode and AF point selection switches, but from online reviews it doesn't seem that complicated to access those functions, after all. Oh, the video "jelly effect" had me a bit worried, too... but then again, the reports seem a bit exaggerated, and I don't do much video anyways. Originally posted by DSims I wouldn't mind getting an 18-135 for only about $200 more either! Yep. I don't really know how it happened, but I had added the camera to my amazon cart at about $1200, and a few days later it had dropped to $1000 (but listing still showed $1139). The only explanation I have, is that the price dropped while I wasn't looking and amazon dropped the price of the item in my cart, but then didn't raise it again. I won't complain, of course

08-30-2012, 02:54 AM	#36
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236 Original Poster	Originally posted by c-meier Yep. I don't really know how it happened, but I had added the camera to my amazon cart at about $1200, and a few days later it had dropped to $1000 (but listing still showed $1139). The only explanation I have, is that the price dropped while I wasn't looking and amazon dropped the price of the item in my cart, but then didn't raise it again. I won't complain, of course Yes, I love it when something like that happens!

08-30-2012, 09:54 AM	#37
CyberManiaK Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 44	Originally posted by wahid_satu It's very difficult to clean up noisy high iso images. I don't really know, but I guess it is better to do NR at very low level (on the data stream itself) rather than on the raw/jpg/tiff files. So pentax (correctly) decided to do it, because we can't do better. Why hate cooked raws if the final images look better than uncooked? Or do you have other preferences, Cyber? I agree Pentax did a good job on how they clean the Raw, however I tend to believe that when NR is applied at the core level that way, tends to loose some detail. And also for me I like to clean my images. Here is one testing ISO 6400 from my current camera http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/7782905264_b945e41101_o.jpg ISO:6400, 135mm F5.6, Shutter: 1/8 c-meier I'm pretty sure you will not regret, the K30 is showing some nice stuff under the housing !!

08-31-2012, 09:13 AM	#39
LeDave Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Minneapolis - St. Paul Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,067	Beautiful! The K-30 has one heck of a processor! Pentax really developed their processor to work well with the Sony sensors. Even better than the bigger money Nikon. Pentax engineers ftw! Now if only better AF can be had =P

09-03-2012, 01:11 AM	#40
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by Tarola Pentax k-30 is the fkn best!! Beats d7000 and nex 7 yeahhh! Seems very enthusiastic there I remember being like this when my K-x trumped almost everything the 1000D and D3000 could during their days... Originally posted by LeDave Pentax engineers ftw! Now if only better AF can be had =P I second this voice

09-19-2012, 08:46 PM	#41
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by c-meier I believe there is no such thing as straight-from-the-sensor raws. Remember, the sensor is connected to an ADC. This specialized chip, which pentax calls "PRIME", quickly samples the sensor data at bitdepths of 20 to 24 bits per cell. Some simple math is done (e.g. applying gamma curves, interpolate dead pixels, controlling "blooming") and then spits out the "raw" at 12 or 14 bits. That is, all RAWs are pre-processed, and, I can only speculate, but it would make sense to do some of the noise reduction on the > 20 bit data. I might be wrong with this, but that's my impression. You are of course 100% correct. This is a subject that has been discussed many times in these forums and elsewhere for different cameras. RAW data is fundamentally not 'untouched by the camera' on any model DSLR. The amount of processing along the way from image capture to storage within the camera is all just a matter of degree. Originally posted by wahid_satu There is more detail on K-30's images. I agree too. Visually the detail is quite apparent. The photoreview.com.au K-30 IMATEST resolution tests charts agree as well. This is not to say that the K-30 results aren't perfect, but Pentax have done a good enough job in getting the balance right between RAW tweaking and preserving detail.

09-21-2012, 11:21 AM	#43
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	Which profile are you using in darktable, the natural or Enhanced Matrix? The EM is equivalent to the bright setting of the K-5 which is punchier. Jack

09-21-2012, 03:41 PM	#44
wahid_satu Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery Posts: 96	The input color profile of the K-30, you mean? Well, I think we are on to something here, Jack. On the K-30 and the K-01 DNGs, I can't set it to natural or enhanced color matrix. I can only choose the sRGB, Adobe RGB and Linear RGB; and the program automatically chose sRGB. On every other raws, the canons, nikons, or the K-5's DNGs, I can set it to natural or enhanced. When set the K-5's to linear RGB I get similar desaturated look as the K-30 image I posted. Have you got any ideas about this?

09-21-2012, 06:10 PM	#45
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	Yes, sorry, I meant input color profile. I am on stable darktable version 1.05 and I can select either standard or enhanced matrix for my K-5 PEFs. Perhaps that is the difference - they are only available for the PEF format? If you want a really desaturated look, pick the linear RGB profile Jack