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09-18-2012, 05:47 AM   #16
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When i open Raw files on software, i can see that some NR is applied by default.

I don't know if it come from the RAW file itself, or if it's the software.

Make sure that the K30 files don't "ask" software to apply more NR by default.

09-18-2012, 07:40 AM   #17
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The K30 has menu options to set the high ISO NR and Low Shutter Speed NR. Is this a case of these settings being applied to the raw files as well as the JPEGs? I had a quick play with mine with the camera set to RAW only and it did seem to affect the noise visible in the images displayed on the camera screen I think. Didn't have time to look at the files in Lightroom though.
09-18-2012, 09:26 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by MBT74 Quote
The K30 has menu options to set the high ISO NR and Low Shutter Speed NR. Is this a case of these settings being applied to the raw files as well as the JPEGs? I had a quick play with mine with the camera set to RAW only and it did seem to affect the noise visible in the images displayed on the camera screen I think. Didn't have time to look at the files in Lightroom though.
We are talking about RAW here mostly but above ISO1600 the K5 and K30 always aply a noise reduction regardless your settings.
09-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #19
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Pentax apply NR to raw files at high ISO been that way for a while now. I think it's dumb myself (raw should have no NR) but clearly somebody isn't listening.
Working the K-r raw files I have I noted smearing and odd colour blotches as well as ACR not mapping out hot pixels as well as it should be.

I have no idea why Pentax would enforce NR on raw files, it's surely a buyer turn off.

09-18-2012, 06:33 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Sounds a bit drastic. Out of curiosity, what program do you use to process your RAW's?
Not all are as good at extracting detail, and some have their own ideas about doing NR.
I tried both Pentax's Digital Camera Utility and Lightroom 2 with pretty much the same results. One thing I noticed for sure, this only happens with darker scenes. If I shoot the same carpet at ISO 6400 but with better light the detail is there and it's quite good. Also, with K-5 I got used to underexpose the scene, to keep the ISO low, because it was so good at preserving detail but it looks like it doesn't work with K30 anymore. If you have a darker picture it's pretty much ruined as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately this seems to me like a marketing strategy.....If they would've kept the same ISO performance the sensor is capable of, and with the much better AF K30 has, there was no way on earth I would've even considered investing in K-5II. So they chose to ruin the capabilities of a perfectly good camera to make it unattractive for more advanced users and justify the higher price of K-5II....

Last edited by Nicks; 09-18-2012 at 07:16 PM.
09-18-2012, 07:29 PM   #21
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I note three things:

Hardware noise reduction is a good thing. Like negative feedback in stereos, most people abhor the idea but electrical engineers know it is a good thing. If this is pure software NR, yes, I'd prefer to be able to choose which software changes my images--because software 10 years from now will possibly be able to retrieve more signal, and I own a DSLR because I hunt images that I might still care about 10 years from now.

The K-5 has 14-bit DNGs while the K-30 has 12-bit DNGs. The complaints here have been about shadow detail, which is where the K-5 seems to put those extra two bits. My guess is that we're seeing the same approach to processing between the cameras, but the K-30--in order to cut costs--simply uses simpler analog to digital converters, which shows up in the shadow detail. It isn't noise reduction per se, but rather a lesser amount of data to work from, which might appear to result in a lower signal to noise ratio.

The K-30 still knocks the socks off of my GX10, which itself I was amazed with when I got it for producing workable high ISO images. Even if the K-5 set the bar very high, that doesn't mean that the K-30's performance is lacking.
09-18-2012, 08:23 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by JonPB Quote
The K-30 still knocks the socks off of my GX10, which itself I was amazed with when I got it for producing workable high ISO images. Even if the K-5 set the bar very high, that doesn't mean that the K-30's performance is lacking.
I agree K30 IS a good camera, like I actually said in the very first post. But being 2 year newer than K-5 I wasn't expecting it to perform worst than K-5 in this matter. You might be right about the extra 2 bits but that still doesn't justify the NR they apply, which entirely kills that lower amount of detail. But I repeat, apart from this problem, which most users won't even notice, K30 is indeed a very good camera I'm enjoying shooting with.
09-18-2012, 10:32 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicks Quote
But being 2 year newer than K-5 I wasn't expecting it to perform worst than K-5 in this matter.
That's fair. And, you spend good money to get a current product, you have reason to expect that it will meet or exceed 2-year-old technology.

By the way, does it strike anyone else that the K-30 sample images here seem to have more sharpening than the K-5 images?

09-18-2012, 10:54 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by JonPB Quote
By the way, does it strike anyone else that the K-30 sample images here seem to have more sharpening than the K-5 images?
The default sharpening level in K30 is VERY high. I had to switch to fine sharpness and tune it down to -2 to get some good pictures. High sharpness with high ISO noise is not a good combination.....Also the default contrast and saturation are through the roof as well....Bottom line, I had to switch to the Muted setting and tweak it from there...
09-19-2012, 07:44 AM   #25
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As someone on the cusp of getting a K-30... should I be worried about this? is it really THAT noticeable even after you've tweaked camera settings?
09-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #26
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I....was always under the impression that sharpness as a function of the camera utility was only applied to the jpeg. RAW files are generally less sharp compared to the jpeg outputs - and even if Pentax increased the digital sharpening of their RAW files, it should not be in any way excessive...

To put it simply - my k-x's RAW outputs are completely unaffected by the sharpening as noted in my camera. Same with noise reduction - excepting the standard Pentax >1600ISO automatic NR. When I view the RAW files as is, they definitely can take a lot of sharpening - depending on the subject. For portraiture, I increase the sharpening value in Lightroom 3 by 25. For everything else, 45. I can't imagine the k-30's digital sharpening to be so overcooked that it's hurting the pictures....

JPEG - maybe. RAW? I really doubt it...
09-19-2012, 08:07 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Richdog Quote
As someone on the cusp of getting a K-30... should I be worried about this? is it really THAT noticeable even after you've tweaked camera settings?
You can set your camera as you like, Richdog. I'm happy with my settings right now but the default settings are probably made to appeal to the entry level users. Very rich, unnatural colors, high sharpness that will give you a lot of artifacts and high contrast that will kill the DR. You can tune down all these setting so nothing to worry about. I definitely recommend the camera unless you like shooting in low light/high ISO situations in which case I would recommend waiting for the upcoming K-5II. K30 is really not too bad in the low light department but it is worse compared to K-5. BUT don't forget that K-5 is the best APS-C camera when it comes to high ISO resolution!
09-19-2012, 08:13 AM   #28
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QuoteQuote:
By the way, does it strike anyone else that the K-30 sample images here seem to have more sharpening than the K-5 images?
QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
I....was always under the impression that sharpness as a function of the camera utility was only applied to the jpeg. RAW files are generally less sharp compared to the jpeg outputs - and even if Pentax increased the digital sharpening of their RAW files, it should not be in any way excessive...

To put it simply - my k-x's RAW outputs are completely unaffected by the sharpening as noted in my camera. Same with noise reduction - excepting the standard Pentax >1600ISO automatic NR. When I view the RAW files as is, they definitely can take a lot of sharpening - depending on the subject. For portraiture, I increase the sharpening value in Lightroom 3 by 25. For everything else, 45. I can't imagine the k-30's digital sharpening to be so overcooked that it's hurting the pictures....

JPEG - maybe. RAW? I really doubt it...

Ooops, my bad. When he said "here" i thought he is talking about here on the forum not here in this thread....My mistake, of course RAW files are not affected by sharpening...
09-19-2012, 08:15 AM   #29
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Also.. here is an ISO 3200 converted from RAW, no NR applied (NR off on the camera, also).

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7277/7585825468_2f2fc47114_o.jpg

Looking at it, 100%, it looks nothing like the noise in your ISO 3200 file. The noise in your ISO 3200 file (see the barrel and shadows) looks blotchy and messy, but in mine it's fine grained (like the k-5). It only is a little blotchy in the OOF areas.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7127/7585826978_43ecda0a8b_o.jpg <-ISO 6400

Even at 6400, it's not as blotchy as your 3200... you can see the individual fine grains of noise in my file (see the camera body)

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicks Quote
Ooops, my bad. When he said "here" i thought he is talking about here on the forum not here in this post....My mistake, of course RAW files are not affected by sharpening...
Ah ok - yeah, I heard that the in-camera jpg sharpening is a bit overcooked. I was confused a little bit because we were talking about the RAW for the noise files, and I didn't think the camera sharpening function affected that
09-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #30
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That's probably because you had a fairly well lit scene. Like I said, that blotchy, messy look, kicks in when shooting a darker scene. I even said in a previous post, when I shoot my carpet at iso6400 but with good light, the detail is there.

QuoteQuote:
I tried both Pentax's Digital Camera Utility and Lightroom 2 with pretty much the same results. One thing I noticed for sure, this only happens with darker scenes. If I shoot the same carpet at ISO 6400 but with better light the detail is there and it's quite good. Also, with K-5 I got used to underexpose the scene, to keep the ISO low, because it was so good at preserving detail but it looks like it doesn't work with K30 anymore.
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