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07-10-2013, 05:22 AM   #16
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I'd tend to agree, although I am assuming that the K-30 will perform LV similarly to the K-01 because of the shared processor. So, unlike other models in the line (especially the earlier versions), it seems to me that the K-30 is a true hybrid. Believe me, I will be using the VF 75% of the time with the K-30, but for instances where I need to change perspective, or work for precise MF focus, or time exposures - I'll be utilizing the fine live view functions. Without question, using the K-01 has made a better photographer - as I am much more aware of the need to change height perspective and not just march with my feet.

07-10-2013, 04:54 PM   #17
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Now that I have the camera and have run it through a few paces, I see how live view is less than seamless compared to the K-01 - to say the least. As far as I can tell, nothing is done to decouple the shutter mechanism from the mirror. Perhaps it isn't economically feasible to do so. So, you trigger the LV and the mirror raises (essentially half cycling). You hit the shutter button and the mirror drops, shutter cycles, the mirror drops down (for quite some time), and then the mirror returns to the up position. That's a lot of activity! I know the K20D worked the same way, but that wasn't real live view by any measure.

I don't know if anyone has worked on decoupling the mirror when shooting in live view. In terms of the processing engine, obviously this could be achieved. Again, for those of us who shoot a lot of MF (or for the video shooters), an opportunity to take a big step forward is out there.
07-10-2013, 05:15 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
I don't know if anyone has worked on decoupling the mirror when shooting in live view. In terms of the processing engine, obviously this could be achieved.
Absolutely this is achievable. In fact the camera already works without wasting energy flipping the mirror around when using LV - when shooting video.
07-11-2013, 10:08 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimJohnson Quote
Absolutely this is achievable. In fact the camera already works without wasting energy flipping the mirror around when using LV - when shooting video.
The situation with video is a bit different and does not necessary mean that you can also shoot still photos without flipping the mirror.

In video you do not need to use the shutter and it so happens that the mechanical design in the K-30 is such that the mirror has to move down to prime the focal plane shutter, which is why in live view it will always flip down before shooting a photo.

It is of course possible for the camera to shoot photos without using the mechanical shutter, since as you mention it does that quite well up to 60 times a second in video, however there is a big downside to it as regards the quality of the image. Basically you will get photos with the quality of a video capture still, which even at full HD falls far short of what one expects from a point and shoot still camera. It would be quite easy for Pentax to incorporate such a function into the firmware but I doubt anyone would use it after seeing the results.

The mechanical shutter is there for a very good reason and unfortunately the way Pentax designed it requires the mirror to go down to make it work. The only way to shoot without moving the mirror would be a mechanical redesign of the mirror and shutter mechanisms, making them independent of each other. (There is actually also the stop down lever complicating matters further)

07-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
The situation with video is a bit different and does not necessary mean that you can also shoot still photos without flipping the mirror.

In video you do not need to use the shutter and it so happens that the mechanical design in the K-30 is such that the mirror has to move down to prime the focal plane shutter, which is why in live view it will always flip down before shooting a photo.

It is of course possible for the camera to shoot photos without using the mechanical shutter, since as you mention it does that quite well up to 60 times a second in video, however there is a big downside to it as regards the quality of the image. Basically you will get photos with the quality of a video capture still, which even at full HD falls far short of what one expects from a point and shoot still camera. It would be quite easy for Pentax to incorporate such a function into the firmware but I doubt anyone would use it after seeing the results.

The mechanical shutter is there for a very good reason and unfortunately the way Pentax designed it requires the mirror to go down to make it work. The only way to shoot without moving the mirror would be a mechanical redesign of the mirror and shutter mechanisms, making them independent of each other. (There is actually also the stop down lever complicating matters further)
Yes, those of us with the Q system understand well that an electronic shutter generally does not scan fast enough to be useful in still photography. The original Q is only scanning at 1/13th second to complete a full cycle so when shooting with an adapted lens and non-shuttered adapter, you can easily encounter jello effect. The better lenses have their own shutter, and so does the Pentax adapter ($250) - so there are workarounds.

It would be interesting to hear from an engineer as to whether or not a premium body could be designed to allow for decoupling. Conceptually, it seems to make sense, but the design challenges must be significant.
07-11-2013, 11:41 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
It would be interesting to hear from an engineer as to whether or not a premium body could be designed to allow for decoupling.
You mean like the K-5 series?
07-12-2013, 09:22 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trigger Happy Quote
You mean like the K-5 series?
Perhaps we aren't referencing the same thing.

It would be surprising to find out that the K-5 does not need to cycle the mirror before taking a shot in LV given that it is so much slower in performance tests, as in the review here:
"In terms of CDAF speed, the K-30 is obviously in a class ahead of the K-5." Mirror cycling or not, I went with the K-30 in part because of improvements in LV such as speed and focus peaking.

I don't know if the issues have been addressed in the newer versions of the K-5, but the review - here again - indicates not:
"The main weak point of the K-5 II is live view and video. Live view has noticeable latency, and the contrast detect autofocus system has not been improved since the K-5. On average, the K-30 thus focuses faster in live view than the K-5 II"...
07-12-2013, 09:34 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
Perhaps we aren't referencing the same thing.

It would be surprising to find out that the K-5 does not need to cycle the mirror before taking a shot in LV given that it is so much slower in performance tests, as in the review here:
"In terms of CDAF speed, the K-30 is obviously in a class ahead of the K-5." Mirror cycling or not, I went with the K-30 in part because of improvements in LV such as speed and focus peaking.

I don't know if the issues have been addressed in the newer versions of the K-5, but the review - here again - indicates not:
"The main weak point of the K-5 II is live view and video. Live view has noticeable latency, and the contrast detect autofocus system has not been improved since the K-5. On average, the K-30 thus focuses faster in live view than the K-5 II"...
Live view and focusing are dependent on the processor and the K-5 uses a different processor than the K-30/K-01. The K-5 has a totally different mirror/shutter mechanism than the K-30 which is why it's much quieter and has a decoupled mirror and shutter. The mirror doesn't cycle on the K-5 when taking a shot in LV. Hope that helps.

07-14-2013, 05:16 PM   #24
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No doubt it is different on the K-5 - a slower and less accurate design, unfortunately. Whether or not it is coupled really doesn't matter if its even slower than the K-30. It just surprised me that it is so much slower than the K-01. Now I understand why those who have only shot dSLRs are so hostile to live view and assumptions about MILCs in general.

As for the loudness of the K-30, everything is relative. The K20D is much, much louder than the K-30 - so the quietness of the K-30 surprised me. Of course, the K-5 owners are so proud of its mirror/shutter quietness, I'd almost think it was quieter than the K-01. Now that would really surprise me.
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