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06-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I know that with my K-5 the difference between lenses is clear but I haven't tried it with a K-30. Also, to the tests with a tripod and stay 2m away with a remote to hear it like the surrounding people.
By all means, please do go ahead and try it and report back on your findings. I think the second test with me at 45 degree to the body/lens at arm length (60cm?) was adequate. You can use your K-5 with any WR lens and a non-WR lens if you like. That will test the theory that the weather sealing gasket is blocking a noticeable amount of mirror/shutter noise. Just remember to set your camera body to manual focus to eliminate the difference between SDM and screw drive. I don't think there is any disagreement that SDM is much quieter than screw drive auto focus.

06-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimJohnson Quote
By all means, please do go ahead and try it and report back on your findings. I think the second test with me at 45 degree to the body/lens at arm length (60cm?) was adequate. You can use your K-5 with any WR lens and a non-WR lens if you like. That will test the theory that the weather sealing gasket is blocking a noticeable amount of mirror/shutter noise. Just remember to set your camera body to manual focus to eliminate the difference between SDM and screw drive. I don't think there is any disagreement that SDM is much quieter than screw drive auto focus.
To argue that screwdrive is as quiet as SDM would be just wierd indeed.
06-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimJohnson Quote
By all means, please do go ahead and try it and report back on your findings. I think the second test with me at 45 degree to the body/lens at arm length (60cm?) was adequate. You can use your K-5 with any WR lens and a non-WR lens if you like. That will test the theory that the weather sealing gasket is blocking a noticeable amount of mirror/shutter noise. Just remember to set your camera body to manual focus to eliminate the difference between SDM and screw drive. I don't think there is any disagreement that SDM is much quieter than screw drive auto focus.
For me, the test is easily skipped for a simple reason: I don't own screwdrive lenses (yet ). Only a WR lens and m42 lenses which don't exactly fit to the mount.
06-09-2013, 03:47 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I needed that laugh today too!

I also think the WR/DA* weather sealing is a major dampening factor. The mirror/shutter sound logically moves a lot forward through the mount and the seals works as a cushion, minimizing vibrations moving through the lens. Using the M42 adapter on the other hand seems to work almost as a drum as it's thin metal around the lens allowing the sound vibrations forward through the adapter itself and the lens.
So I've just done some (semi) scientific testing to find out how much difference the lens makes and how much the camera does. Unfortunately I have only two DSLRs to test with, the K-r and K-30 and a small selection of lenses.

I set up the camera on a tripod with quick release mounts and the sound meter on another tripod 75 cm from the camera at a location of 45 degrees to the front and left of the camera.

I suspected the aperture might make a difference since there are also things moving there depending on whether the iris is open or closed and should also be highly dependant on the lens. (I expect narrower apertures to be more noisy because the diaphragm moves the whole way but at full aperture it does not move at all)

The sound meter was set on fast response time, peak hold and 'A' weighted response.

I started with the K-30, trying all lenses first at full open then full closed aperture, then changed to K-r and did the same. Then I repeated the whole thing all over again to get a second set of readings.

In the second set I also tried both cameras with no lens attached.

Some things are very much as expected

1. There is a significant difference between lenses and the no-lens test shows how important the insulating properties of the lens can be. WIth no lens I got about 63dB for the K-30 and 64dB for the K-r, compared to 56.5 and 57.5 respectively with the 18-135WR

2. The 18-55 DA-L, with its light construction is by far the noisiest one, being only 2dB quieter than having no lens at all while the 18-135 WR attenuates the sound by about 6dB (that is the sound is reduced to one quarter of the no-lens level)

3. Conversely the 18-135 WR is the quietest of all the lenses. I think it is mostly due to the weather sealing and possibly also the rather sturdy construction. Properly weather sealed windows also tend to block out noise so I think it makes sense that the same applies to weather sealed lenses.



Some things were quite surprising (at least to me)

1. The difference between the K-r and K-30 was just 1dB with the 18-135 WR lens. Subjectively the K-r still sounds significantly louder and harsher but the instrument is telling me otherwise.

2. The difference between K-r and K-30 is the same regardless of which lens is used (I mean same lens on each camera), and even without lens. This seems to indicate that the weather sealing on the K-30 has nothing to do with the reduced noise. It seems that the K-30 just makes less noise to start with. This is odd because I was sure the K-30 and K-r sounded almost the same with all lenses but the WR.

3. Although not shown in the table, I discovered something odd by mistake. It seems that the battery can make a significant difference. Unfortunately I came across this quite late and haven't had the time to test it systematically. It does appear though that the AA batteries are significantly quieter bot on the K-R and K-30. I was seeing a 1.5 to 2 dB reduction when using AA compared to Lithium Ion. However at this point I was not doing things very systematically. Maybe I'll find time some other day to look at this in more depth. The tests in the table were all done with the same lithium ion battery. (taking it out of one camera and putting it in the other)



I've been struggling to insert a table in the response but I'm getting nowhere. Instead I pasted the results in comma separated format. You can get a more legible view by simply pasting into Excel (or some similar spreadsheet program) and do a 'text to columns' with comma delimiter.

Results:

Camera,Lens,Shutter,Aperture,Ambient1,Reading 1,Reading 2,Average,Variance
K-30,Tamron 90,40,2.8,42,58.7,58.7,58.7,0.0
K-30,Tamron 90,40,32,41.7,58.7,57.7,58.2,0.5
K-30,Pentax 18-135 WR (18mm),40,3.5,41.7,57.1,57.2,57.2,0.0
K-30,Pentax 18-135 WR (18mm),40,32,41.7,55.9,56.5,56.2,0.3
K-30,Pentax 18-55 DAL (18mm),40,4,41.7,59.1,61.0,60.1,1.0
K-30,Pentax 18-55 DAL (18mm),40,22,41.7,60.7,59.7,60.2,0.5
K-30,Tamron 18-250 (18mm),40,3.5,41.7,57.7,58.7,58.2,0.5
K-30,Tamron 18-250 (18mm),40,22,41.7,57.3,57.0,57.2,0.1
K-30,Tamron 10-24 (10mm),40,3.5,41.8,58.6,59.1,58.9,0.3
K-30,Tamron 10-24 (10mm),40,22,41.8,58.2,58.0,58.1,0.1
K-30,No Lens,40,n/a,41.7,--,62.6,62.6,0.0
K-r,Tamron 90,40,2.8,41.8,57.9,59.0,58.5,0.5
K-r,Tamron 90,40,32,41.7,58.1,58.7,58.4,0.3
K-r,Pentax 18-135 WR (18mm),40,3.5,41.7,56.3,57.1,56.7,0.4
K-r,Pentax 18-135 WR (18mm),40,32,41.7,57.7,58.3,58.0,0.3
K-r,Pentax 18-55 DAL (18mm),40,4,41.8,62.5,60.0,61.3,1.3
K-r,Pentax 18-55 DAL (18mm),40,22,41.7,61.5,60.9,61.2,0.3
K-r,Tamron 18-250 (18mm),40,3.5,41.9,59.7,59.7,59.7,0.0
K-r,Tamron 18-250 (18mm),40,22,41.7,59.7,58.0,58.9,0.9
K-r,Tamron 10-24 (10mm),40,3.5,41.7,58.7,59.0,58.9,0.1
K-r,Tamron 10-24 (10mm),40,22,41.7,56.6,58.0,57.3,0.7
K-r,No Lens,40,n/a,41.7,--,63.8,63.8,0.0



The lenses are
Tamron 90mm Macro Di SP
Tamron 18-250 Di II AF (IF)
Tamron 10-24 Di II SP
SMC Pentax DA 18-135 ED AL (IF) DC WR
SMC Pentax 18-55 DA L AL

06-09-2013, 03:53 AM   #35
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Forgot to mention: Focus was set to manual and the cameras were triggered with the infra red remote, without delay.
06-09-2013, 05:17 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
So I've just done some (semi) scientific testing to find out how much difference the lens makes and how much the camera does. Unfortunately I have only two DSLRs to test with, the K-r and K-30 and a small selection of lenses.
Thank you for your testing. As I understand it 1dB difference is barely perceptible. A 4dB difference is perceptible, but really only if fairly continuous and literally side by side. In other words machine gun photography.

I have loaded your data into Excel as suggested and grabbed screen shots. I resorted each camera/lens from average quietest to loudest. I also charted each camera on this same data.
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06-09-2013, 05:26 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimJohnson Quote
Thank you for your testing. As I understand it 1dB difference is barely perceptible. A 4dB difference is perceptible, but really only if fairly continuous and literally side by side. In other words machine gun photography.

I have loaded your data into Excel as suggested and grabbed screen shots. I resorted each camera/lens from average quietest to loudest. I also charted each camera on this same data.
That's some great data deserving its own thread! At least we can say that the lens affects the sound but only intensity to a very limited degree. Now the interesting thing would be to analyze the sound when it comes to pitch and pattern.
06-09-2013, 09:53 AM   #38
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Well I went by the camera shop and played with the 5D MK3, D7000, D60, and 6D. All of them, sans the 6D, were very loud. I was surprised how loud the 5D Mk3 was. Wow...The K30 can't be any louder than them.

06-09-2013, 01:12 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by john5100 Quote
Well I went by the camera shop and played with the 5D MK3, D7000, D60, and 6D. All of them, sans the 6D, were very loud. I was surprised how loud the 5D Mk3 was. Wow...The K30 can't be any louder than them.
That's what I've been saying and they are some of the most used cameras in all events.
06-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #40
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I use my K-30's for weddings and have no problem with the shutter sound. I ask for feedback from the client at a later dte and so far none has comment on camera noise.

I shoot a lot and I do slow down on the quiet moments during the ceremony. Unless I'm far away
06-09-2013, 05:33 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
I have a k-30 and a K-r. The K-30 with 18-135 WR lens mounted is significantly quieter than the K-r but with other lenses the difference is not that much.
Putting the WR lens on the K-r doesn't seem to make any difference but on the K-30 it does.

From time to time I shoot birds from a hide and I can safely say that other shooters I encountered there almost always have much quieter shutters than I do. In the hide, unlike in larger spaces, it is easy to compare sounds due to the confined space and the obligatory silence that one must keep. I have at times worried that someone would complain about me scaring away the nearby wildlife but it hasn't happened yet. Not necessarily a fair comparison though as it might be that bird photographers give particular attention to shutter noise when choosing their camera.

The only noisier camera I ever encountered there was a huge Nikon, I think full frame or maybe MF (do they exist?) from its size, and it was not just louder than mine but much louder. I would have asked about it because it looked like a very interesting setup (not because it was the only louder camera than mine) that he had but he was Japanese (I think) and didn't speak a word of English.
I spent 3 days in May at Magee Marsh during the Spring warbler migration. There are a lot of photographers there and when a rarer bird is in an area there may be a lot of cameras and glass close by. My K-30 (with Sigma 50-500 attached) was silent compared to a lot of the Canons. I can't say which models they were, but the loudest were always Canons, and with the cost of the lenses attached, they weren't Rebels. Some could have been older top level Canons and some could be new.
06-10-2013, 11:05 AM   #42
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A friend's 5D always seemed to have a quieter shutter than my K100D when we were at the same air show. I haven't heard his new 5DIII against my K-30 though.
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