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05-25-2016, 10:18 PM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by JoseFF Quote
supersede its high % of early failure
What do you think that incidence is?

Consumers Union, a non-profit company in the U.S., tests many products and also maintains a database of product reliability drawn from subscriber surveys. Their most recent survey results for interchangeable lens cameras sorts out as follows:

Incidence of Repairs or Serious Problems
  • Panasonic: 4%
  • Canon: 5%
  • Sony: 7%
  • Pentax/Ricoh: 7%
  • Nikon: 8%
  • Olympus: 8%
The results are from 2010-2015, inclusive. Pentax results include the K-5 stain issue as well as the K-3II recall and the K-30/K-50 aperture issues. Consumers Union says that differences less than 5% are not meaningful.


Steve

05-26-2016, 02:25 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
UntrustworthY? You mean accepting and fixing the cameras under warranty? I was unaware of warranty service problems in Europe. If your camera is out-of-warranty and believe you will be better served with foreign language instructions on a home-brewed repair, be my guest. Given the cost to replace with a new camera vs. cost to repair you have little to lose.

FWIW, the warranty repair involves replacement of the actuator assembly and controller component.


Steve
Steve with all due respect, i think you are wrong on this one. I thing this is a well documented problem that Ricoh refuses the step up to the plate and remedy. M y camera finally went completely haywire and wont even lift the shutter curtain open , so you can besure I will give this a whirl. Now if Pentax was doing the right thing and offering to repair these things free of charge , then I would agree with you

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 05:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What do you think that incidence is?

Consumers Union, a non-profit company in the U.S., tests many products and also maintains a database of product reliability drawn from subscriber surveys. Their most recent survey results for interchangeable lens cameras sorts out as follows:

Incidence of Repairs or Serious Problems
  • Panasonic: 4%
  • Canon: 5%
  • Sony: 7%
  • Pentax/Ricoh: 7%
  • Nikon: 8%
  • Olympus: 8%
The results are from 2010-2015, inclusive. Pentax results include the K-5 stain issue as well as the K-3II recall and the K-30/K-50 aperture issues. Consumers Union says that differences less than 5% are not meaningful.


Steve
The difference is Nikon steps up to the plate

Last edited by niceshot; 05-26-2016 at 02:28 AM. Reason: mispelling
05-26-2016, 02:27 AM   #18
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As a customer I expect a product to be capable for it's intended use. I am aware that products have a limited lifetime and that this lifetime ends when it is worn or or one component breaks down due to wear. The K30 / 50 has a serial error that renders a high percentage of examples useless even if they are only mildly used. In this case I would expect a manufacturer to offer a free repair outside of the guarantee period. When I'm dealing with people I have no problems when make mistakes, but my trust in them depends on wheter they admit them and do their part to correct them. Would you buy a used car from a neighbour who has acted like Pentax with the K30 / 50 affair in the past? I would not.

There is another disadvantage when a compay acts like Pentax: The dealers will have many conversations with unhappy and well informed customers. If they have less trouble with other manufacturer's products they will likely focus more on selling these brands and think about kicking Pentax out of their product range. This is nothing I would risk if I were a niche manufacturer like Pentax.

I would like that this thread moves back to the repair solution and not become a Pentax-bashing thread. I'm sure that somebody has a russian speaking technical minded friend or colleague who might be able to clarify this. Vodka might be the right incentive!
05-26-2016, 06:53 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Altglas Quote
As a customer I expect a product to be capable for it's intended use. I am aware that products have a limited lifetime and that this lifetime ends when it is worn or or one component breaks down due to wear. The K30 / 50 has a serial error that renders a high percentage of examples useless even if they are only mildly used. In this case I would expect a manufacturer to offer a free repair outside of the guarantee period. When I'm dealing with people I have no problems when make mistakes, but my trust in them depends on wheter they admit them and do their part to correct them. Would you buy a used car from a neighbour who has acted like Pentax with the K30 / 50 affair in the past? I would not.

There is another disadvantage when a compay acts like Pentax: The dealers will have many conversations with unhappy and well informed customers. If they have less trouble with other manufacturer's products they will likely focus more on selling these brands and think about kicking Pentax out of their product range. This is nothing I would risk if I were a niche manufacturer like Pentax.

I would like that this thread moves back to the repair solution and not become a Pentax-bashing thread. I'm sure that somebody has a russian speaking technical minded friend or colleague who might be able to clarify this. Vodka might be the right incentive!
Wisely said Altglas. For those who are stuck with a useless K30/50, this thread offers a bit of hope on solving the problem at a reasonable cost.

05-26-2016, 07:47 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by JoseFF Quote
Can anybody translate the yellow Russian words in the photo? I think they explain what to do to the piece in order to solve the problem. Thanks.
Yellow words on the left say: "Insert a blade into the connector and gently turn to remove the magnet from the pin"
Words on the right say: "This is our objective: the screw is already taken out"

By the way, reading the whole discussion on the Russian site, they say that using AA batteries instead of the Pentax battery solves the problem. It seems that this magnet thing is a more permanent solution.

Sorry - reading further they say that AA batteries work for some, and seem to delay disease progression, if I may put it like that.
05-26-2016, 07:55 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
Yellow words on the left say: "Insert a blade into the connector and gently turn to remove the magnet from the pin"
Words on the right say: "This is our objective: the screw is already taken out"

By the way, reading the whole discussion on the Russian site, they say that using AA batteries instead of the Pentax battery solves the problem. It seems that this magnet thing is a more permanent solution.
IgorZ, can you translate "С торцов убрал зеркало надфилем" for us? That seems to be the critical step. Google turns it into "With the anchor ends removed mirror needle files", which I think means "polish the armature with a file or sandpaper", but I can't tell if they mean the ends or the sides of the armature arms.
05-26-2016, 08:19 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by niceshot Quote
The difference is Nikon steps up to the plate
The D610 recall only involved in-warranty cameras. Pentax recalled all early production K-3II. Next question.

QuoteOriginally posted by Altglas Quote
The K30 / 50 has a serial error that renders a high percentage of examples useless even if they are only mildly used. In this case I would expect a manufacturer to offer a free repair outside of the guarantee period.
Your expectations are unlikely to be met by any manufacturer unless by force of law or order of the courts. I have no idea whether Germany or the EU provides satisfaction for purchases that do not meet the user's expectations for service life or suitability for purpose.

QuoteOriginally posted by JoseFF Quote
Wisely said Altglas. For those who are stuck with a useless K30/50, this thread offers a bit of hope on solving the problem at a reasonable cost.
The cost would be reasonable, perhaps, for people with the required tools, good eyesight, and manual dexterity. If I was to request the described repair at a local shop, I would expect it to cost at least $200 USD. I would also expect the shop to not guaranty that it would work or that the camera would be weather resistant after the attempted repair.

I am curious as to whether the Russian repair is generally successful. As I commented above, I have never owned a K-30 or a K-50, but I recommended the camera to friends and also to numerous forum members. I was involved early on when the problem came to light on this forum and was dismayed when it was found in both models. A simple solution that does not require parts would be wonderful, though to be honest, I have my doubts.

If you (@JoseFF) do the procedure, it would be good of you to start a new thread detailing how it went and whether it worked. I would ask the same of @Altglas except that their camera is still operational.


Steve
05-26-2016, 08:22 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
Yellow words on the left say: "Insert a blade into the connector and gently turn to remove the magnet from the pin"
Words on the right say: "This is our objective: the screw is already taken out"

By the way, reading the whole discussion on the Russian site, they say that using AA batteries instead of the Pentax battery solves the problem. It seems that this magnet thing is a more permanent solution.

Sorry - reading further they say that AA batteries work for some, and seem to delay disease progression, if I may put it like that.
Thanks for jumping in! The battery claim is questionable unless the lithium cell is mostly dead (that happens with age) and is something that people might want to consider before tearing into the camera.


Steve

05-26-2016, 08:25 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
IgorZ, can you translate "С торцов убрал зеркало надфилем" for us? That seems to be the critical step. Google turns it into "With the anchor ends removed mirror needle files", which I think means "polish the armature with a file or sandpaper", but I can't tell if they mean the ends or the sides of the armature arms.
Sorry - slowly making my way through the discussion on that forum - a bunch of guys trying to figure out what's going on with their cameras. Apparently, the problem is common to K-30, K-50, and K-R. The part you quoted is a key step, but since I haven't finished reading the discussion, I am not sure if it is the solution. Some were skeptical of it.

Basically, the guy took armature arms (? the Russians refer to it as the anchor for the magnet) and filed the front and back of it. There is a lot of physics in their discussion, stuff like molecular magnetism, but my understanding is that their conclusion was that the problem can be traced to residual magnetism building up in the armature arms which prevents them from moving and actuating the aperture. He thought all that was needed was to create some space between the armature arms and the magnet - we are talking about tiny gaps, really. My understanding is that he is talking about the front part that you can see, as well as the back of it, but I will keep reading.
05-26-2016, 08:31 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
Some were skeptical of it.
That was my take on it, too. By the later pages, they seem pretty confident that modifying the armature works.
05-26-2016, 08:35 AM - 1 Like   #26
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Here's my take on this image: (Googlish in blue, my version in black)



Left side:
провода отвалились после 5 загибаний !!!
wires have fallen off after 5 bending !!!
можно отпаять
You can unsolder
(Pink and purple wires may break off - unsolder them before removing the armature)

(red arrows pointing to purple boxes indicating armature arms)
Продолжение якоря
Extension anchor
С торцов убрал зеркало надфилем
With the anchor ends removed mirror needle files
(This is the armature or "anchor". Remove the armature and polish it - but which sides?)

(green arrows)
после сборки и пробных кадров зафиксировать лаком, как было ! Смазывать ничего не нужно !!!
after assembly and trial images with lacquer , as it was ! grease do not need anything !!!
(After reassembly and testing, fix the armature in place with nail polish or locktite. Do not use any lubricant.)

Right side:
на K-50 этого нету, видимо корпусной шлейф
on K- 50 that is not present, apparently housing trail
(Apparently, the mounting in the K-50 is slightly different from the picture)

(arrorw to white gear)
при снятом магните колесо не крутить !!!
when removed magnet wheel do not twist !!!
(Do NOT turn the gear with the actuator removed!)

Отвернуть
Unscrew
(To remove the actuator, you will have to break the lacquer seals and remove the screw)

магнит пометить и не переворачивать !!!
Magnet mark and turn !!!
(I think Google omitted a 'NOT' here - Note the correct position of the actuator and do not turn over)

(arrows to either side of the brass pin)
приподнять и вытащить якорь, я запоминал как стоит. при монтаже обеспечить равные зазоры
lift and pull out anchor, I remembered how worth . mounting ensure equal gaps
(Lift and remove armature. Note position and when reassembling, align correctly with equal spacing.)

при пробах поднимать якорь магнита вверх до притягивания, оьязятельно !!! возможны поломки механизма!
when samples raise anchor magnet to pull up , oyazyatelno!!! possible failure mechanism !
(This one worries me, but I think it is: When testing, be SURE to lift up the actuator to avoid possible damage to the mechanism!)
05-26-2016, 08:39 AM   #27
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How many DSLR, or Pentax DSLR, in history, have had a repeated and somewhat frequent problem with a camera function as important as the aperture lever? In those instances, how many recall were issued?
For one to say that there is nothing wrong with the design of the part involved is for one to put his hand in the sand. I would bet all my camera gear that Pentax will never ever use the same mechanism, because simply put, it is likely to break well before the expected lifespan, and that in itself is a cause of recall.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What do you think that incidence is?

Consumers Union, a non-profit company in the U.S., tests many products and also maintains a database of product reliability drawn from subscriber surveys. Their most recent survey results for interchangeable lens cameras sorts out as follows:

Incidence of Repairs or Serious Problems
  • Panasonic: 4%
  • Canon: 5%
  • Sony: 7%
  • Pentax/Ricoh: 7%
  • Nikon: 8%
  • Olympus: 8%
The results are from 2010-2015, inclusive. Pentax results include the K-5 stain issue as well as the K-3II recall and the K-30/K-50 aperture issues. Consumers Union says that differences less than 5% are not meaningful.


Steve
05-26-2016, 08:41 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
That was my take on it, too. By the later pages, they seem pretty confident that modifying the armature works.
There are two guys who fixed it, and the rest follow them. The two guys have different solutions, the most popular being one that involved filing the armature arms. The other involved lubricating it, but was deemed at best temporary by the others.
05-26-2016, 08:47 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
There are two guys who fixed it, and the rest follow them. The two guys have different solutions, the most popular being one that involved filing the armature arms. The other involved lubricating it, but was deemed at best temporary by the others.
I think Goodman had good results that lasted. What was his solution?
05-26-2016, 08:50 AM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Here's my take on this image: (Googlish in blue, my version in black)



Left side:
провода отвалились после 5 загибаний !!!
wires have fallen off after 5 bending !!!
можно отпаять
You can unsolder
(Pink and purple wires may break off - unsolder them before removing the armature)

(red arrows pointing to purple boxes indicating armature arms)
Продолжение якоря
Extension anchor
С торцов убрал зеркало надфилем
With the anchor ends removed mirror needle files
(This is the armature or "anchor". Remove the armature and polish it - but which sides?)

All ends. Earlier I thought they were referring to the part that's facing in the picture, but I think they are referring to the two ends that are inside the magnet.

(green arrows)
после сборки и пробных кадров зафиксировать лаком, как было ! Смазывать ничего не нужно !!!
after assembly and trial images with lacquer , as it was ! grease do not need anything !!!
(After reassembly and testing, fix the armature in place with nail polish or locktite. Do not use any lubricant.)

Right side:
на K-50 этого нету, видимо корпусной шлейф
on K- 50 that is not present, apparently housing trail
(Apparently, the mounting in the K-50 is slightly different from the picture)

(arrorw to white gear)
при снятом магните колесо не крутить !!!
when removed magnet wheel do not twist !!!
(Do NOT turn the gear with the actuator removed!)

Отвернуть
Unscrew
(To remove the actuator, you will have to break the lacquer seals and remove the screw)

магнит пометить и не переворачивать !!!
Magnet mark and turn !!!
(I think Google omitted a 'NOT' here - Note the correct position of the actuator and do not turn over)

Correct.

(arrows to either side of the brass pin)
приподнять и вытащить якорь, я запоминал как стоит. при монтаже обеспечить равные зазоры
lift and pull out anchor, I remembered how worth . mounting ensure equal gaps
(Lift and remove armature. Note position and when reassembling, align correctly with equal spacing.)

при пробах поднимать якорь магнита вверх до притягивания, оьязятельно !!! возможны поломки механизма!
when samples raise anchor magnet to pull up , oyazyatelno!!! possible failure mechanism !
(This one worries me, but I think it is: When testing, be SURE to lift up the actuator to avoid possible damage to the mechanism!)
You are right: When testing, be sure to lift armature until it sticks to the magnet to avoid possible damage.

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:11 AM ----------

Here is the step by step process with photographs from here: ???????? ? ?30! - ?????? ?????-????? - ???????? 7

1.Remove bottom cover
2.Remove all screws from the top and front cover
3.Put the camera body with LCD screen down
4.Carefully move the top cover up
5.Put the AF.S/С/MF switch into any extreme position and remeber which position it is
6.Carefully remove the front cover - it sits tightly on the mount
7.Holding the mount, remove the screw that holds the magnet (screwdriver can only be inserted at an angle because of the battery compartment and I didn't feel like removing it). Apply little yet sufficient force not to break the pins or anything else
8.Using a blade, carefully remove the magnet. In addition to the screw, it is attached by laquer as well
9.Holding the magnet, remove armature arms
10.(Translator's comment: the original fix involved putting armature arms into a vise so that ends of arms are in line with the lips of the vise) . If you don't have access to a vise, put a file on a flat surface and holding armature arms make a couple of passes to remove the polished surface at the ends of the arms
11.Use fine sanding paper to remove burr at the edges of the armature
12.Wipe armature to remove any possible metal dust from the surfaces
13.Using tweezers, wash armature arms in alcohol, wait till it dries, and put them back in.
14.Attach the magnet using the screw and add a drop of nail polish on the pin and the strew
15.Carefully put the front cover on the mount and make sure the AF.S/С/MF switch is in the correct position by going through all three possible positions of the switch (AF.S, AF.C, and MF)
16. Put the covers back on

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:12 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JoseFF Quote
I think Goodman had good results that lasted. What was his solution?
That was Goodman's solution, which is actually a documentation of the storvn73 solution.
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