[Not a Number]

Comments like these are why I believe this problem is not as simple as some would like to imply, and why I believe Pentax should be given some grace with respect to this problem using a known component with an otherwise satisfactory record

Which is why I've been saying all along is probably the reason Ricoh treats each failure on a case-by-case basis.

[steveo-1]

Below is another thread which has the best theory of what the problem is that I've seen. Based on this other thread, creating a bigger air gap between the armature and the permanent magnet helps keep the armature from "sticking" to the permanent magnet. Filing the edges has a similar effect, because the armature seems to be a sandwich of a non-magnetic core and two thin strips of iron/steel bonded to it. Filing the edges effectively makes the distance between the iron/steel armature "skin" and magnet greater - as in the attempted fix in the thread below.

Personally, I can't give Ricoh a pass on this because it seems to be a problem that's existed for 5 years over several models and probably continues with the newest models. Having read for years about TQM in Japan, that philosophy seems distant to Ricoh. Why do they seem to be repeating the same mistake? I don't expect them to fix my camera which is 2.5 years old, but I do expect the same problem to be gone if (big if at this point) I purchase another Pentax.

K-30/K-50 Aperture Control Problem/Black Photo Repair - How I did it. - PentaxForums.com

[slartibartfast01]

Has anyone in the UK with this problem had their camera repaired under the sale of goods act (or whatever it is called now)?This should protect against premature failure outside the warranty period.

[paolo11]

The problem with Pentax repair (Precision in CT), is that they replace the entire aperture block. The question is: modified or original? Why doesn't Pentax come out and say what the problem is, and how they are repairing it so we all can stop guessing.

So far my wife's K50 is working fine (CA fix). I'm so deep into Pentax that I would need a crane to get out. The CA repairer gives a 1 year warranty, but if it fails within the warranty, that's it. I will tear it down just to see if the plunger was filed, and then use it manually.

My K1 doesn't have this setup as the new lenses (Tamron ?) use a DC motor, hopefully the motor will last. One person on another forum said he's taken well over 1 K shots with the 28 - 105mm lens on a trip, and it works fine. I have the same lens, and the focusing is so sharp and fast, that I haven't used manual focusing so far.

Paolo

The K1 is awesome, best natural colors I've ever seen from my other Pentax's, 1/2 the price of a comparable Canon or Nikon, and in some ways, better. I hope for all of us that the K30/K50 will be the last of it.

Again, I was told by a Pentax rep that the K70 doesn't use the K30/K50 aperture block.

[reh321]

....Personally, I can't give Ricoh a pass on this because it seems to be a problem that's existed for 5 years over several models and probably continues with the newest models. Having read for years about TQM in Japan, that philosophy seems distant to Ricoh. Why do they seem to be repeating the same mistake? I don't expect them to fix my camera which is 2.5 years old, but I do expect the same problem to be gone if (big if at this point) I purchase another Pentax.

The problem with Pentax repair (Precision in CT), is that they replace the entire aperture block. The question is: modified or original? Why doesn't Pentax come out and say what the problem is, and how they are repairing it so we all can stop guessing....

This is where I repeat, yet again, the comment I keep making.

All evidence is that this problem just magically appeared. A part that had been working fine stopped working fine. People here seem to assume that they are putting potentially bad parts into cameras as part of the repair process; if you say that, you are implying one of two things
(1) Pentax cannot tell the difference between good parts and bad parts
(2) Pentax doesn't care.

If you really believe #2, then you are saying "Pentax is evil", and you should immediately go to some other brand

If you really believe #1, then you should give them some grace.
People have said here that they no longer use that part, so new products should be fine.
KAF4 avoids the issue by no longer using that mechanism.
Unless you really believe #2, then you should admit that they have done all they can to put this behind them.

For the record, I do not believe that Pentax is evil

[altopiet]

This is where I repeat, yet again, the comment I keep making.

All evidence is that this problem just magically appeared. A part that had been working fine stopped working fine. People here seem to assume that they are putting potentially bad parts into cameras as part of the repair process; if you say that, you are implying one of two things
(1) Pentax cannot tell the difference between good parts and bad parts
(2) Pentax doesn't care.

If you really believe #2, then you are saying "Pentax is evil", and you should immediately go to some other brand

If you really believe #1, then you should give them some grace.
People have said here that they no longer use that part, so new products should be fine.
KAF4 avoids the issue by no longer using that mechanism.
Unless you really believe #2, then you should admit that they have done all they can to put this behind them.

For the record, I do not believe that Pentax is evil

Looking at "repaired" cameras, developing the same problem, they probably #1, and not making sure that the replacement part is at least better than the one they replace....?
The problem is that they probably will never admit it, so we'll never know, and the "perception" then is #2

"then you are saying "Pentax is evil" is a bit dramatic, don't you think?

No camera on earth is probably perfect, but your "logical" conclusion is that we not discuss problems with Pentax cameras, because you feel we "should immediately go to some other brand"

I've been with Pentax since 1981 and even after my problems with the K-30, I again bought another Pentax, and the next one will probably be Pentax again, if I can get some money somewhere....but you seem to believe I should never share my disappointment with anything regarding Pentax, just shut up and move to another brand?

This seems like building a wall of silence around the brand, not good for the future of the brand IMO

[Not a Number]

Looking at "repaired" cameras, developing the same problem, they probably #1, and not making sure that the replacement part is at least better than the one they replace....?

How do you know it is the same part that failed?

Being a K-30 wasn't yours one of the early failures? Perhaps Hoya/Ricoh (the K-30 was a Hoya effort with cross over to Ricoh) hadn't seen enough failures yet to establish a pattern.

There simply isn't enough data to jump to any sort of conclusions.

[altopiet]

First fail after 2 years, +- 12000 clicks, warranty repair "replace mirror box", taking 4 months. Second fail end 2016 +-, same symptoms, not bothering to waste time and money to send away, just to confirm what is very high probability same problem....Anybody willing to sponsor me sending it in for repair and "official" confirmation, is welcome .

K5iis bought 2014, +- 26 000 clicks, no problems...

I still use my K-30 with M42 lenses, and 2 M lenses that I've removed the aperture lever from, 1 M50/1.4 (non reversible), and I'm seriously considering doing the same to my K35/3.5..., as even green button metering useless, which all indicates to the same failure IMO

[reh321]

Looking at "repaired" cameras, developing the same problem, they probably #1, and not making sure that the replacement part is at least better than the one they replace....?
The problem is that they probably will never admit it, so we'll never know, and the "perception" then is #2

"then you are saying "Pentax is evil" is a bit dramatic, don't you think?

No, when people make the same complaint over and over again, that is exactly what they are implicitly saying.

I cannot imagine sticking with a company when I don't trust them. I had two Canon Rebels in a row fail me, each apparently having processor issues.
It took me seven years to get there, but only 3552 shutter clicks - 2913 unique pictures according to my count.
I had moved from Pentax to Canon in 1995 because I liked the Canon lenses better, but in 2015 I moved back to Pentax because I decided I couldn't trust Canon bodies.

I am now using a K-30; I hope it doesn't fail soon {current shutter count 1454 - 538 unique pictures}, because our bank balance isn't what I would like it to be, but several M42-mount lenses now reside permanently in my camera bag
I keep asking questions about this malady because the answers I get don't point me in the same direction; I'm currently using my K-30 with AA-batteries and I try to use it at least once each week, because comments seem to indicate that these two practices might help ... but I don't know, and I don't believe that the Pentax engineers, who are a lot better at this than I am(*), really know.
The K-30 was released something like 4-1/2 years ago; if you assume that it took at least a year for this problem to show up in sufficient numbers to convince Pentax that it wasn't a fluke, and another year at the other end for the K-70 and KP to be designed. Pentax spent maybe two years trying to figure out what was going on here before giving up on that mechanism and moving on. As long as they have honored their warranties, as a retired design engineer I believe they did the best they can, and I can't see sinking Pentax over the cost of providing infinite warranty-like protection over something they had no way of foreseeing and no obvious way of alleviating.

(*) I am now retired, but as a software engineer I worked with some very clever hardware engineers, including at a company that makes lab equipment and an aerospace company, so I have high respect for the kind of person who does that kind of work.

---------- Post added 02-10-17 at 12:53 PM ----------

The problem with Pentax repair (Precision in CT), is that they replace the entire aperture block. The question is: modified or original? Why doesn't Pentax come out and say what the problem is, and how they are repairing it so we all can stop guessing.

As I've said multiple times, I'm convinced that they don't know what the problem is. They were caught by surprise when it started happening and after a couple of years trying to understand it, they gave up and moved on to another mechanism for the K-70. I would love to get a K-70 if I could find money for it.

[caliscouser]

As I've said multiple times, I'm convinced that they don't know what the problem is.

Yes, you keep putting out the same canard every time someone says anything vaguely negative about this issue. Namely Pentax should either get a free pass or they are the devil incarnate.
What particular insights or information convince you that they don't know what the problem is?

They were caught by surprise when it started happening and after a couple of years trying to understand it, they gave up and moved on to another mechanism for the K-70

Really? They looked at it for 2 years and couldn't figure it out? With all their intellectual and engineering skills and experience. This seems laughably implausible.

I would love to get a K-70 if I could find money for it.

It just dropped to $599

as a retired design engineer I believe they did the best they can, and I can't see sinking Pentax over the cost of providing infinite warranty-like protection over something they had no way of foreseeing and no obvious way of alleviating

What exactly did they do? Who proposed infinite warranty? I've never seen that suggested.
They could certainly subsidize the cost of repair a little more, or subsidize the part cost. There are plenty of things that could be done that sit somewhere between bankrupting Pentax and leaving users high and dry.

This doesn't have to be a black and white Pentax is awful proposition.
There is some understanding of the issue. There is some understanding of possible solutions. And there are some reasonable suggestions as to how Pentax could have handled things better.
There are also some unanswered questions and a lack of long term data particularly around any fixes.
That's where we stand.

I'm not sure if you have taken apart a K-30/K-50 and examined this problem and experimented with it, probably not if you have a working camera (I wouldn't either).
But it is very instructive in understanding the issue.

[reh321]

Yes, you keep putting out the same canard every time someone says anything vaguely negative about this issue. Namely Pentax should either get a free pass or they are the devil incarnate.
What particular insights or information convince you that they don't know what the problem is?

Really? They looked at it for 2 years and couldn't figure it out? With all their intellectual and engineering skills and experience. This seems laughably implausible.

Look back through the discussions here. As I have pointed out several times, we have been given information which is essentially contradictory. If I were working for Pentax and had the same information, I'm not convinced I would know where to look for the solution. (*) I'm also not convinced that the problem is the kind of thing that could be detected via testing before the part is installed. I believe it is entirely possible that this problem, involving a part that has worked correctly in various settings, is something that is caused or exasperated by some unrealized aspect of how the K-30//50 works. Complaining is easy, but I'm not convinced that correcting this situation is easy.

What exactly did they do? Who proposed infinite warranty? I've never seen that suggested.
They could certainly subsidize the cost of repair a little more, or subsidize the part cost. There are plenty of things that could be done that sit somewhere between bankrupting Pentax and leaving users high and dry.

This doesn't have to be a black and white Pentax is awful proposition.
There is some understanding of the issue. There is some understanding of possible solutions. And there are some reasonable suggestions as to how Pentax could have handled things better.

I'm convinced that many of the complainants I've heard wouldn't be satisfied by anything less than a replaced camera. Maybe that's not what they are thinking, but that is what they sound like

I'm not sure if you have taken apart a K-30/K-50 and examined this problem and experimented with it, probably not if you have a working camera (I wouldn't either).
But it is very instructive in understanding the issue.

My K-30 still works and I plan to keep it that way as long as I can. I've even set aside several M42-mount lenses, and a couple of AdaptAll backs that I can disable the aperture levers on, so I can continue to use it.


(*) and it turns out that I'm good at analyzing design problems

[steveo-1]

Just a note here, lenses with aperture rings continue to work correctly including the ones with the lever in the lens which stops down automatically. So no need to use only m42 lenses as a workaround solution.

And no, it's not too difficult a problem for an engineer to figure out.

[Not a Number]

To my ears, "mirror box" doesn't sound like "aperture block". This could be a different problem.

It's been mentioned before that the factory repair sometimes included replacing the mirror box. People seem to assume that "aperture block" refers to the infamous solenoid. However if you look at Pentax part lists for other cameras parts they label as "block" (e.g. shutter block or gear block) shows an assembly of many parts, mostly gears. I don't have the K-30/50 service manual / parts list and I'm not inclined to pay for a service manual for a camera that I don't own or plan to own.

For we know it is not just the solenoid failing but either the circuitry supplying power to the coil and/or whatever mechanism pulls the plunger out.

[steveo-1]

To my ears, "mirror box" doesn't sound like "aperture block". This could be a different problem.

---------- Post added 02-10-17 at 06:32 PM ----------

altopiet reported that green button metering doesn't work for his problem.

I'm sitting here now with the problem as the filing I did just got me back to this being an intermittent problem, and the green button metering is working on both a non-aperture ring lens and an older k mount with aperture ring.

As for the mirror box replacement, could be the repair shop fixed the wrong thing? The lever in the camera that works the lens aperture lever goes up with the mirror. In fact that solenoid may actually be the thing that raises the mirror too. Just a guess at this point because the magnet in that solenoid seems like overkill just to work the aperture.

[caliscouser]

For we know it is not just the solenoid failing but either the circuitry supplying power to the coil and/or whatever mechanism pulls the plunger out.

Except we do know. Changing the solenoid makes the camera work again. If it was a power supply issue then the replacement solenoid wouldn't work either.
This is not speculation, I've changed the solenoid myself and now have a working camera. Others have too.

In fact that solenoid may actually be the thing that raises the mirror too. Just a guess at this point because the magnet in that solenoid seems like overkill just to work the aperture.

An aperture motor drives the aperture block and all gears in it. The solenoid controls the travel of the aperture lever, that's its only function.