Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-26-2016, 09:23 AM   #31
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 184
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The D610 recall only involved in-warranty cameras. Pentax recalled all early production K-3II. Next question.



Your expectations are unlikely to be met by any manufacturer unless by force of law or order of the courts. I have no idea whether Germany or the EU provides satisfaction for purchases that do not meet the user's expectations for service life or suitability for purpose.



The cost would be reasonable, perhaps, for people with the required tools, good eyesight, and manual dexterity. If I was to request the described repair at a local shop, I would expect it to cost at least $200 USD. I would also expect the shop to not guaranty that it would work or that the camera would be weather resistant after the attempted repair.

I am curious as to whether the Russian repair is generally successful. As I commented above, I have never owned a K-30 or a K-50, but I recommended the camera to friends and also to numerous forum members. I was involved early on when the problem came to light on this forum and was dismayed when it was found in both models. A simple solution that does not require parts would be wonderful, though to be honest, I have my doubts.

If you (@JoseFF) do the procedure, it would be good of you to start a new thread detailing how it went and whether it worked. I would ask the same of @Altglas except that their camera is still operational.


Steve
I would be happy to do so but first I have to understand well what the Russians did. My camera is still operative with manual lenses (I have three of them) and with the kit one I placed an "artificial" stop on it so that I can shoot at fixed aperture in Aperture priority mode.

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
You are right: When testing, be sure to lift armature until it sticks to the magnet to avoid possible damage.

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:11 AM ----------

Here is the step by step process with photographs from here: ???????? ? ?30! - ?????? ?????-????? - ???????? 7

1.Remove bottom cover
2.Remove all screws from the top and front cover
3.Put the camera body with LCD screen down
4.Carefully move the top cover up
5.Put the AF.S/С/MF switch into any extreme position and remeber which position it is
6.Carefully remove the front cover - it sits tightly on the mount
7.Holding the mount, remove the screw that holds the magnet (screwdriver can only be inserted at an angle because of the battery compartment and I didn't feel like removing it). Apply little yet sufficient force not to break the pins or anything else
8.Using a blade, carefully remove the magnet. In addition to the screw, it is attached by laquer as well
9.Holding the magnet, remove armature arms
10.(Translator's comment: the original fix involved putting armature arms into a vise so that ends of arms are in line with the lips of the vise) . If you don't have access to a vise, put a file on a flat surface and holding armature arms make a couple of passes to remove the polished surface at the ends of the arms
11.Use fine sanding paper to remove burr at the edges of the armature
12.Wipe armature to remove any possible metal dust from the surfaces
13.Using tweezers, wash armature arms in alcohol, wait till it dries, and put them back in.
14.Attach the magnet using the screw and add a drop of nail polish on the pin and the strew
15.Carefully put the front cover on the mount and make sure the AF.S/С/MF switch is in the correct position by going through all three possible positions of the switch (AF.S, AF.C, and MF)
16. Put the covers back on

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:12 AM ----------



That was Goodman's solution, which is actually a documentation of the storvn73 solution.
Thanks Igor!! Looks scary...

05-26-2016, 09:36 AM - 2 Likes   #32
Loyal Site Supporter
THoog's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,458
QuoteOriginally posted by kp0c Quote
I would bet all my camera gear that Pentax will never ever use the same mechanism, because simply put, it is likely to break well before the expected lifespan, and that in itself is a cause of recall.
The K-S2 has an identical mechanism. Please send all your gear to a deserving photography student.

Seriously, though, it appears they have used this actuator design (or a very similar one) in every "plastic" body since at least the K-m, and most of them have worked fine for years. It may not be the design itself. It may be that the vendor that makes the actuators for Pentax changed their process slightly and did not leave the armature stampings/castings in the polishing drum long enough. Or used their dies slightly longer than before, so that some of the armatures are just a fraction of a hair too thick.

PENTAX K-S2 07 Bare model

by Hideya HAMANO, on Flickr
05-26-2016, 09:43 AM - 1 Like   #33
Veteran Member
IgorZ's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 669
QuoteOriginally posted by JoseFF Quote
I would be happy to do so but first I have to understand well what the Russians did. My camera is still operative with manual lenses (I have three of them) and with the kit one I placed an "artificial" stop on it so that I can shoot at fixed aperture in Aperture priority mode.

---------- Post added 05-26-16 at 09:26 AM ----------


Thanks Igor!! Looks scary...
You are welcome. I knew there had to be some benefit to suffering through 10 years of Russian grammar in school
05-26-2016, 09:56 AM - 1 Like   #34
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,617
QuoteOriginally posted by kp0c Quote
How many DSLR, or Pentax DSLR, in history, have had a repeated and somewhat frequent problem with a camera function as important as the aperture lever? In those instances, how many recall were issued?
The reason why I posted the information from Consumer Union was intended to show that the chances of getting a defective Pentax camera is similar to that for the industry in general. Those defects would include both design and manufacturing problems. It would be good to note that overall, ICL cameras have a defect rate somewhat below that for cell phones, TVs, and personal computers.

During the time I have been active on this site (since 2007), I can only recall three problems that were frequent and only one that was pervasive:
  • K-5 sensor stain issue
  • K-3II camera freeze (pervasive, requiring a full recall)
  • K-30/K-50
Some users here might include mirror flop/flap/runaway for various models, but those were less pervasive. Of course, there was huge discussion here, but the actual number of reports was small compared to the three points above. on the K-5, K-r, and (I think) K-x. K-3 mirror runaway might also make the list.

For camera history in general, the picture is mixed. There are several highly regarded cameras that have well-known weak points (e.g. Yashica Electro 35 "pad of death", Zeiss Contax I/II shutter ribbons) as well as some with poor design for key features (Hasselblad "barn door")

QuoteOriginally posted by kp0c Quote
For one to say that there is nothing wrong with the design of the part involved is for one to put his hand in the sand.
There is obviously a problem with the aperture control block (duh), though I would suggest that time-related material failure or lapse in manufacturing tolerance as a more likely cause than design per se.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 05-26-2016 at 10:23 AM.
05-26-2016, 10:03 AM   #35
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,617
QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
1.Remove bottom cover
2.Remove all screws from the top and front cover
3.Put the camera body with LCD screen down
4.Carefully move the top cover up
5.Put the AF.S/С/MF switch into any extreme position and remeber which position it is
6.Carefully remove the front cover - it sits tightly on the mount
7.Holding the mount, remove the screw that holds the magnet (screwdriver can only be inserted at an angle because of the battery compartment and I didn't feel like removing it). Apply little yet sufficient force not to break the pins or anything else
8.Using a blade, carefully remove the magnet. In addition to the screw, it is attached by laquer as well
9.Holding the magnet, remove armature arms
10.(Translator's comment: the original fix involved putting armature arms into a vise so that ends of arms are in line with the lips of the vise) . If you don't have access to a vise, put a file on a flat surface and holding armature arms make a couple of passes to remove the polished surface at the ends of the arms
11.Use fine sanding paper to remove burr at the edges of the armature
12.Wipe armature to remove any possible metal dust from the surfaces
13.Using tweezers, wash armature arms in alcohol, wait till it dries, and put them back in.
14.Attach the magnet using the screw and add a drop of nail polish on the pin and the strew
15.Carefully put the front cover on the mount and make sure the AF.S/С/MF switch is in the correct position by going through all three possible positions of the switch (AF.S, AF.C, and MF)
16. Put the covers back on
Cool! Do we know the purpose of this assembly? It looks more like the mirror flipper than the aperture actuator.


Steve
05-26-2016, 10:18 AM   #36
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,617
QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
The K-S2 has an identical mechanism. Please send all your gear to a deserving photography student.

Seriously, though, it appears they have used this actuator design (or a very similar one) in every "plastic" body since at least the K-m, and most of them have worked fine for years. It may not be the design itself. It may be that the vendor that makes the actuators for Pentax changed their process slightly and did not leave the armature stampings/castings in the polishing drum long enough. Or used their dies slightly longer than before, so that some of the armatures are just a fraction of a hair too thick.

PENTAX K-S2 07 Bare model

by Hideya HAMANO, on Flickr
Same design in the K-S2 I was afraid of that. Thanks for finding the photo. Seeing the components in relation to the mount and mirror box puts things in perspective.

I am alone in thinking that the solenoid in question appears to be related to the mirror mechanism, with the aperture actuator controlled via the white gear directly below?


Steve
05-26-2016, 10:39 AM - 1 Like   #37
Veteran Member
IgorZ's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 669
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Cool! Do we know the purpose of this assembly? It looks more like the mirror flipper than the aperture actuator.


Steve
I found the description of how this assembly works, the problem is how to translate it. The guy uses some physics jargon which I hardly understand in Russian

He says the following: "Описать действие узла я могу следующим образом:
В исходном состоянии рычаг управления диафрагмой притянут якорем в верхнем положении за счет поля постоянного магнита.
По приходу импульса на катушки эл.магнита создается магнитное поле, противодействующее полю постоянного магнита, вследствие чего
общая напряженность магнитного поля становится близкой к нулю.
Под действием пружины (рычаг управления диафрагмой подпружинен, и стремится вытащить якорь из каркаса катушек)
рычаг управления диафрагмой вместе с якорем уходит вниз и творит свое доброе дело. (не видно).
Начинают вращатся шестерни, которые после окончания импульса, через некоторое время возвращают рычаг с якорем в исходное состояние каким то толкателем.
Толкатель на шестерне проворачивается дальше и освобождает рычаг для следующего хода, шестерни останавливаются в исходном положении.
Рычаг с якорем удерживается магнитным полем постоянного магита и опять стремится выдернуть якорь и так по новой."

"I can describe the way this assembly works in the following manner. Initially, the arm that moves the aperture is held in the upper position by the electromagnetic field created by the magnet. Once the electric impulse reaches the coil, an electromagnetic field opposite to the current of the magnet is generated, the result of which is that the total electromagnetic field strength is close to zero. The arm that moves the aperture is spring loaded, which pulls it down to open the aperture. The cogs start spinning and when the electric impulse is gone, they return the arm that drives aperture into the initial position using a pin. The pin on the cog moves further and frees the arm that drives the aperture for the next actuation. The cogs return to the initial position and the arm that drives the aperture as well as the armature are held by the electromagnetic field generated by the magnet."

Sorry - haven't done physics in 20 years or so
05-26-2016, 11:05 AM   #38
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,617
QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
I found the description of how this assembly works, the problem is how to translate it. The guy uses some physics jargon which I hardly understand in Russian

He says the following: "Описать действие узла я могу следующим образом:
В исходном состоянии рычаг управления диафрагмой притянут якорем в верхнем положении за счет поля постоянного магнита.
По приходу импульса на катушки эл.магнита создается магнитное поле, противодействующее полю постоянного магнита, вследствие чего
общая напряженность магнитного поля становится близкой к нулю.
Под действием пружины (рычаг управления диафрагмой подпружинен, и стремится вытащить якорь из каркаса катушек)
рычаг управления диафрагмой вместе с якорем уходит вниз и творит свое доброе дело. (не видно).
Начинают вращатся шестерни, которые после окончания импульса, через некоторое время возвращают рычаг с якорем в исходное состояние каким то толкателем.
Толкатель на шестерне проворачивается дальше и освобождает рычаг для следующего хода, шестерни останавливаются в исходном положении.
Рычаг с якорем удерживается магнитным полем постоянного магита и опять стремится выдернуть якорь и так по новой."

"I can describe the way this assembly works in the following manner. Initially, the arm that moves the aperture is held in the upper position by the electromagnetic field created by the magnet. Once the electric impulse reaches the coil, an electromagnetic field opposite to the current of the magnet is generated, the result of which is that the total electromagnetic field strength is close to zero. The arm that moves the aperture is spring loaded, which pulls it down to open the aperture. The cogs start spinning and when the electric impulse is gone, they return the arm that drives aperture into the initial position using a pin. The pin on the cog moves further and frees the arm that drives the aperture for the next actuation. The cogs return to the initial position and the arm that drives the aperture as well as the armature are held by the electromagnetic field generated by the magnet."

Sorry - haven't done physics in 20 years or so
Thanks! I think I understand, though without actually seeing it in motion, I am not willing to speculate further than what you translated.


Steve

05-26-2016, 02:58 PM - 2 Likes   #39
Loyal Site Supporter
THoog's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,458
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Same design in the K-S2 I was afraid of that. Thanks for finding the photo. Seeing the components in relation to the mount and mirror box puts things in perspective.
Well, a visually very similar design, at least. Here it is again, in a K-r:



And you can see something similar in a teardown of a K100D (video below - warning, in Czech, and not for the weak of stomach, if you ever loved a Pentax DSLR) - PLUS the release mechanism for the onboard flash looks the same. From this I conclude that it's a standard part that Pentax has been using successfully for a long time, but for some reason (either a slight change to the actuator design or in the manufacturing process), the K-30/50 version has an higher-than-usual number of units that are not up to spec.

Attached Images
   
05-27-2016, 12:28 AM   #40
Junior Member




Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Original Poster
Thank you, IgorZ and THoog for you work on the repair solution.
I did some repair work on classic cameras and from that experience would avoid oil or grease at this coil. What might be of use is graphite powder, but it would have to be the finely ground variety and used in very small amount. My boys had detective kits when they were small and included was a bottle of very fine graphite powder. I had to confiscate this anyway so why not put it to good use....

I can imagine that the proper shape and contact geometry of the parts depend on the residual magnetism of the individual part. This build up of residual magnetism may also be a cause for the variations of the units. I'm often astonished why some screwdrivers delelp magnetism, and others don't. The mechanisms will be checked successfully during manufacture, but the build up of magnetism will be different from unit to unit.

The pictures of the older cameras show, that it probably isn't a major design fault but a design that depends on a level of production quality, that they can't reliably maintain. What is a bit unnervig: They already had occasional problems with the K-x and K-r. In this case I would have expected of Pentax to adjust the design to tolerate the production quality available at this price point and to install a wide safety margin.
05-27-2016, 02:23 AM   #41
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2014
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 918
QuoteOriginally posted by Altglas Quote
Thank you, IgorZ and THoog for you work on the repair solution.
I did some repair work on classic cameras and from that experience would avoid oil or grease at this coil. What might be of use is graphite powder, but it would have to be the finely ground variety and used in very small amount. My boys had detective kits when they were small and included was a bottle of very fine graphite powder. I had to confiscate this anyway so why not put it to good use....

I can imagine that the proper shape and contact geometry of the parts depend on the residual magnetism of the individual part. This build up of residual magnetism may also be a cause for the variations of the units. I'm often astonished why some screwdrivers delelp magnetism, and others don't. The mechanisms will be checked successfully during manufacture, but the build up of magnetism will be different from unit to unit.

The pictures of the older cameras show, that it probably isn't a major design fault but a design that depends on a level of production quality, that they can't reliably maintain. What is a bit unnervig: They already had occasional problems with the K-x and K-r. In this case I would have expected of Pentax to adjust the design to tolerate the production quality available at this price point and to install a wide safety margin.
It seems to me this electromagnet is the culprit and it is easy to get to, I ave downloaded very specific instructions along with some very fancy software mean for the camera techs . so i am sure I will be able to fix my camera when I i develop some time possible this weekend. After I do I will report back,as of now my camera is completely useless ,it wont even open the shutter curtain. PS IT SEEMS to me Pentax could offer to replace this so called electro magnet free of charge and try to instill some confidence in their product, bad decision on their part to completely ignore this problem
05-27-2016, 03:01 AM   #42
Junior Member




Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Original Poster
Hello Niceshot,

your work on your camera will be a very useful step ahead in the research of this problem. What is missing right now are detail pictures and measurements of the parts that cause the failure.
If you've got a second camera it would be great if you instal a bright no-glare lighting and do your best to get pictures that show the parts before and after your repair. If you've got a caliper or micrometer, it would be great to start a collection of measurements of these parts. Possibly we can identify problematic parts just by measuring their mechanical dimensions and have a recipe for the repair. I have all the measuring and photographic tools, but I'm not too keen to open my camera right now, since it still works.

In the end we might develop an adjustment process equal to the setting of the points of an igniton system. Maybe these Pentax-breakdowns are not a defect at all but a feature to have the determined users develop the same relationship to their camera that drivers of oil-leaking old british motor cycles have.
05-27-2016, 07:17 AM   #43
Veteran Member
IgorZ's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 669
QuoteOriginally posted by niceshot Quote
It seems to me this electromagnet is the culprit and it is easy to get to, I ave downloaded very specific instructions along with some very fancy software mean for the camera techs . so i am sure I will be able to fix my camera when I i develop some time possible this weekend. After I do I will report back,as of now my camera is completely useless ,it wont even open the shutter curtain. PS IT SEEMS to me Pentax could offer to replace this so called electro magnet free of charge and try to instill some confidence in their product, bad decision on their part to completely ignore this problem
By the way, not the instructions themselves, but in other places in the thread we discussed yesterday, they mentioned that there is a capacitor that needs to be drained, otherwise you'll get zapped
05-27-2016, 07:29 AM   #44
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 184
QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
By the way, not the instructions themselves, but in other places in the thread we discussed yesterday, they mentioned that there is a capacitor that needs to be drained, otherwise you'll get zapped
You are right, That is an important quote to do IgorZ. Yesterday, we obtained good advance and your help was vital. By the way, were you able to contact our Russian friends?
05-27-2016, 07:32 AM   #45
Loyal Site Supporter
THoog's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,458
QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
By the way, not the instructions themselves, but in other places in the thread we discussed yesterday, they mentioned that there is a capacitor that needs to be drained, otherwise you'll get zapped
I think they are referring to the flash capacitor. The "beast that bites" is about the size of an AA battery, and anyone opening up a digital camera should be careful to discharge the flash capacitor or they may get a nasty jolt. In most (all?) Pentax cameras, it's located in the body behind the model name.

Once again, from the K100D teardown - the flash capacitor is the large black cylinder.
Attached Images
 
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aperture, aperture block failue, block, block failue repair, camera, cameras, cost, details, failue repair solution, failure, forum, k-30, k-50, k-50 aperture block, mount, nikon, pentax k30, pentax k50, plate, post, repair, results, russian, translator, union, warranty
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted - Acquired: KatzEye Focus Screen for K-3 (K-3, K-5, K-5II, K-7, K-30, K-50, K-500), New or LN fwcetus Sold Items 15 05-07-2016 08:01 PM
Why A K-S1 Instead Of The K-50 / K-30? I'm A Pentaxian Pentax K-S1 & K-S2 71 12-24-2015 03:50 AM
Wanted - Acquired: Wanted K-30/K-50/K-500/K-r 12345 Sold Items 13 09-12-2015 09:51 AM
For Sale - Sold: Focusingscreens.com EE-S Screen for K-3, K-5, K-5II, K-7, K-30, K-50 & K-500 Aperturae Sold Items 6 10-06-2014 06:49 AM
For Sale - Sold: KatzEye Split-Prism Focusing Screen - for K-3, K-5, K-5II, K-7, K-30, K-50 & K-500 chickentender Sold Items 7 04-15-2014 08:35 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:24 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top