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03-04-2019, 01:57 AM - 4 Likes   #826
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I think the problem wasn't ignored at the beginning. Ricoh and many others did not know what was the problem. It were members of a Russian forum which first noticed it was 'just the solenoid itself' and not the complete board! Actually Ricoh did not charge very high prices for the repair in the beginning, in Europe it was about $ 250 (after the 2 years European warranty run out). As I have built out 3 aperture-control-boards myself I know what work is involved. I would not recommend anybody to do it, too much has to be disassembled, imo not worth it.

So when it was finally known that the culprit is ONLY the solenoid itself Ricoh exchanged the solenoid only and almost halved the repair costs. They must have been reliefed because the difference in work involved is huge!


Some people guess that it could be "a powersupply" feeding the aperture-circuit but this is pure guesswork based on rather naive assumption that because using Eneloop rechargeable batteries did not cause solenoid failure and thus it must be linked with a powersupply, they don't even know which part of the camera is the powersupply because they never measured anything themselves but only reproduce by hearsay. Nothing wrong with guessing but they keep insisting that "it must be so" it's identification based on ... well... fantasy.

Anyway back to your question:

Ricoh only could really change anything when they designed the K70 and if you open a K70 you can see that its not the same aperture block assembly anymore, for example the screw sits on the left side. Most likely they have adapted the powersupply but as my K70 is still under warranty I don't want to fiddle with it.


It was member Tonytee who wrote about it Here post #70 . We checked the serial and could estimate, that after latest in December 2015 when Ricoh did "something" about it.
What they did, no idea. But in Germany cases had been reported where repaired K-30's and K-50's failed again after about 1 year. Some even earlier within the 1 year repair-warranty.

So we don't know. Fact is, the K70 has a green made in China solenoid as well. And very very few did fail. About 5 have been reported in Germany, none in Switzerland yet.

Also very few K-S1 and K-S2 bodies have been reported, so I guess strongly that something was done.

The white solenoid is not anymore manufactured, Shinmei Japan moved all their production to China (and Taiwan but not for this solenoid). The machines went there.

This is very similar what happened here in Europe long time ago to Radio-tubes: The great German manufacturer Telefunken, known for the worldwide very best tubes next to US Western-Electric moved production to then Jugoslavia. They actually sold their machines to another factory but still sold their tubes as Telefunkens, just without a particular (diamond) mark in the glass and in the beginning they even lied about it because the logo still said "made in Germany"! But the tubes were inferior. Later production stopped in Europe completly, new tubes were manufactured now only in China for a while: Disaster. Real disaster. Best example were KT88's and EL34's. Free firework included at times. Prices for NOS (New Old Stock) and even used tubes went rocket high. Then the Russians started to produce them as well. Better quality but soundwise still not great. Hardly anybody had real high quality tubetesters anymore to trace curves (which would show something about it but not all).


So here with the solenoid we have a similar problem: Machines are no more in Japan, work conditions at Shinmei are very bad, that bad that workers once took hostages


Last edited by photogem; 03-07-2019 at 12:19 AM. Reason: repair of link
03-04-2019, 03:55 AM   #827
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Thank you for the neat explanation @photogem!
03-04-2019, 01:58 PM   #828
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Thank you for the neat explanation @photogem!
You (all) are welcome!
03-05-2019, 11:17 AM   #829
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Been away for a few days and only just seen this, photogem, thanks for the information.

Andy

03-05-2019, 08:54 PM   #830
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QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
This is very similar what happened here in Europe long time ago to Radio-tubes: The great German manufacturer Telefunken, known for the worldwide very best tubes next to US Western-Electric moved production to then Jugoslavia...
BTW Did you knew our Czechoslovak tube manufacturer TESLA (nothing linked to Elon Musk ? They was making pretty good tubes, best in eastern Europe. It was distributed to other countries. Same tubes models was also made in Poland (Polam, Telam) and imported here, they was cheaper but worse. Currently AFAIK Tesla is making only some special RF power tubes for narrow customers. But in Slovakia there was revived the tube manufacturing under brand JJ Electronic - Company profile I think their quality is also good, they sell most of production outside, AFAIK also as OEM for Mullard...
03-06-2019, 01:45 AM   #831
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QuoteOriginally posted by RayeR Quote
BTW Did you knew our Czechoslovak tube manufacturer TESLA (nothing linked to Elon Musk ? They was making pretty good tubes, best in eastern Europe. It was distributed to other countries. Same tubes models was also made in Poland (Polam, Telam) and imported here, they was cheaper but worse. Currently AFAIK Tesla is making only some special RF power tubes for narrow customers. But in Slovakia there was revived the tube manufacturing under brand JJ Electronic - Company profile I think their quality is also good, they sell most of production outside, AFAIK also as OEM for Mullard...
Well, we want to stay with the theme, I used audio-tubes as a good example for showing, how manufacturing can go downhill. Anyway, I know all those manufacturers you name... there was as well Czech AVVT by Alesa Vaic , very good sound but other problems. I knew his worldwide distributor Peter Qvortrup very well. JJ, not really good, just o.k.. Mullard is no longer Mullard UK! Only NOS Mullards are worth it but many Mullards (even with the stamp made in England!) where made by Philips in Holland or Valvo in Aachen, W.Germany and thus similar to Siemens-Halske Germany, because many Siemens-Halske tubes where made either by Valvo Aachen (Valvo belonged to Philips) or Philips Holland. So all those manufactures lied with their logos! But same happened elsewhere, RCA, Tung-Sol, Gold-Lion (MO-Valve) to name a few. But let's leave it with this, here we talk Pentax.
03-06-2019, 02:08 AM   #832
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So, what do electron tubes have to do with the problem we're supposed to discuss here? Then, add some some vaguely anti-Chinese prejudices, and a sweeping dismissal of differing opinions as naive fantasy... enhanced with a link to a 404 page (it should have lead to page about a work conflict about tightly scheduled toilet breaks in Shinmei's Shanghai factory in 2008).
In other recent postings, Photogem also advised someone to glue in a screw with epoxy (a certain recipe for disaster should you ever want to take out that screw again), and not to use silver solder (forgetting to add that using an acetylene burner is also not recommended).

And to add injury to insult, this is backed by a moderator, who IMO should rather restrain such postings instead of enabling them.

One last remark by me before I'm out of here (and that means the Pentax Forum which I find is increasingly populated by people repeating monologues).

I'm not saying that I know the reason for the problem. But summarily stating that the solenoid is the only culprit simply does not explain why in many cases changing the power supply changes the symptoms. Also, one of the differences between the K-50 and all the later models is that these do not allow using AA-type batteries any more (which presumably lead to the omission of the circuitry needed to adapt to different power source voltages), so the notable difference between these models is just that. Looking at publicly available datasheets for similar solenoids, one can see that there's a clear minimum of holding power at a certain voltage, a deviation in both ways (higher and lower) increases the holding power (see this post K-50 / K-500 Aperture Solenoid fix (DIY with pics) - PentaxForums.com, there's a link to the moatech website where you can find the datasheets.)
Now, one could imagine that a deviation in holding power over time and a deviation in voltage supplied to release the plunger might both play a role here, explaining why mechanical changes (sanding) as well as changing the battery system both influence the symptoms. But this will get summarily dismissed.
So, IMO it's not at all clear that the solenoid is the sole reason for the problem. There are too many unanswered questions here. Changing it is a workaround and might be a permanent solution, nothing more.

Over and out.
03-06-2019, 04:01 AM - 1 Like   #833
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QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
So, what do electron tubes have to do with the problem we're supposed to discuss here? Then, add some some vaguely anti-Chinese prejudices, and a sweeping dismissal of differing opinions as naive fantasy... enhanced with a link to a 404 page (it should have lead to page about a work conflict about tightly scheduled toilet breaks in Shinmei's Shanghai factory in 2008).
In other recent postings, Photogem also advised someone to glue in a screw with epoxy (a certain recipe for disaster should you ever want to take out that screw again), and not to use silver solder (forgetting to add that using an acetylene burner is also not recommended).

And to add injury to insult, this is backed by a moderator, who IMO should rather restrain such postings instead of enabling them.

One last remark by me before I'm out of here (and that means the Pentax Forum which I find is increasingly populated by people repeating monologues).

I'm not saying that I know the reason for the problem. But summarily stating that the solenoid is the only culprit simply does not explain why in many cases changing the power supply changes the symptoms. Also, one of the differences between the K-50 and all the later models is that these do not allow using AA-type batteries any more (which presumably lead to the omission of the circuitry needed to adapt to different power source voltages), so the notable difference between these models is just that. Looking at publicly available datasheets for similar solenoids, one can see that there's a clear minimum of holding power at a certain voltage, a deviation in both ways (higher and lower) increases the holding power (see this post K-50 / K-500 Aperture Solenoid fix (DIY with pics) - PentaxForums.com, there's a link to the moatech website where you can find the datasheets.)
Now, one could imagine that a deviation in holding power over time and a deviation in voltage supplied to release the plunger might both play a role here, explaining why mechanical changes (sanding) as well as changing the battery system both influence the symptoms. But this will get summarily dismissed.
So, IMO it's not at all clear that the solenoid is the sole reason for the problem. There are too many unanswered questions here. Changing it is a workaround and might be a permanent solution, nothing more.

Over and out.
You're having a go at me for thanking photogem for his explanatory post? I seem to recall you've posted before that you're "out of here". And yet you're back. I understand the point of photogem mentioning the issue with valves. What he said is that, when valve (audio tube) manufacturers moved their production to other parts of Europe (no anti-Chinese musings as you assert), the quality suffered, in the same way as quality suffered when the supplier of the solenoid moved manufacture of the solenoid to China.

A friendly warning: Stop with the personal attacks.

03-06-2019, 09:27 AM - 2 Likes   #834
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QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
So, what do electron tubes have to do with the problem we're supposed to discuss here? Then, add some some vaguely anti-Chinese prejudices, and a sweeping dismissal of differing opinions as naive fantasy... enhanced with a link to a 404 page (it should have lead to page about a work conflict about tightly scheduled toilet breaks in Shinmei's Shanghai factory in 2008).
In other recent postings, Photogem also advised someone to glue in a screw with epoxy (a certain recipe for disaster should you ever want to take out that screw again), and not to use silver solder (forgetting to add that using an acetylene burner is also not recommended).

And to add injury to insult, this is backed by a moderator, who IMO should rather restrain such postings instead of enabling them.

One last remark by me before I'm out of here (and that means the Pentax Forum which I find is increasingly populated by people repeating monologues).

I'm not saying that I know the reason for the problem. But summarily stating that the solenoid is the only culprit simply does not explain why in many cases changing the power supply changes the symptoms.
@photogem and I have "crossed swords" several times over details - but he has handled these things, so he knows things. No one has disagreed with his conclusion that the white solenoids used Telflon while the the green solenoids use PET; I am guessing, but do not know, that they also changed exact metal formula - likely they use some sort of recycled steel that would have different impurities in different locations. The change in metals could happen in any change in locations, but in this case the documented change in locations just happened to end in China. A change to Germany could have resulted in the same sort of change, but it happened to be a change to China. We know that manipulations of the solenoid will, at least temporarily, fix the problem; we know that replacing a newer green solenoid by a older white solenoid seems to permanently fix the problem - this is good empirical evidence that the solenoid causes the problems, even if we cannot use theory to explain exactly why this happens. What we need is a plan for fixing the problem for those who want to fix it (*) - assigning "blame" is not useful, nor do I see anyone here doing that right now.


(*) With my K-30, I chose to use aperture-ring equipped lenses; that was my choice, but others should have the choice of doing this surgery.
03-07-2019, 04:00 AM   #835
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QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
So, what do electron tubes have to do with the problem we're supposed to discuss here?
They have exactly that to do with it as I exlained in my post, so good for "him who can read" (and understand of course).

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
Then, add some some vaguely anti-Chinese prejudices
You are getting very desperate in finding faults

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
...and a sweeping dismissal of differing opinions as naive fantasy...
It was a dismissal against "one differing opinion" because this particular opinion is based on zero evidence

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
enhanced with a link to a 404 page (it should have lead to page about a work conflict about tightly scheduled toilet breaks in Shinmei's Shanghai factory in 2008).
Desperate in finding faults?

Why not just let me/us know, that this link doesn't function (anymore)?
(because sometimes these things happen, I didn't check what went wrong, when I checked the post first the link worked, maybe I made a mistake later, so what?
It can be repaired!)


QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
In other recent postings, Photogem also advised someone to glue in a screw with epoxy (a certain recipe for disaster should you ever want to take out that screw again)
Again: You are searching desperatly faults to proof me wrong. This ain't sandpit fighting, we are not in kindergarden but a forum I value very much.


First VERIFY and then ... if you have verified yourself by actually DOING, then discuss.

My advice was that tiny bit of epoxy just at the threads of the screw ... and really just a touch.... and then screw it in but not too tight.
It works. And one can unscrew this screw again. Verified! It doesn't lead to disaster as you desperatly try to hang onto.

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
... and not to use silver solder (forgetting to add that using an acetylene burner is also not recommended).
I strongly suggest you learn more about the difference between
HARD SOLDERING which can be done as well with silver solder

and
the two different methods of Soft Soldering

because the second method of soft soldering with a soldering iron (and pencil-shape tip) uses solder.

NOW: There are many different types of solder and there is for example very fine and high quality silver solder . But this type of silver solder demands much higher temperatures than for example this special
LOW TEMPERATURE INDIUM SOLDER

But only somebody like you would think of this type of hard soldering silver solder! Why not think of welding the wires to the solenoid?


QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
One last remark by me before I'm out of here (and that means the Pentax Forum which I find is increasingly populated by people repeating monologues):

I'm not saying that I know the reason for the problem. But summarily stating that the solenoid is the only culprit simply does not explain why in many cases changing the power supply changes the symptoms.
This has been explained before many times. High quality NiMH rechargeable batteries such as Eneloops deliver AMPERES (here mA)! This is due to the much lower inner resistance of the cells. Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have by their nature a higher internal resistance: About 320mohms compared to the lower resistance of NiMH of about 155mili-ohms. Not to be mixed up with mAh (which is the capacity the battery can be charged with, i.e. how long it will last) We are talking mA here, i.e.
how much mA the coils can draw for this short moment they recieve the voltage. The voltage remains the same because it is regulated.


QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
Also, one of the differences between the K-50 and all the later models is that these do not allow using AA-type batteries any more (which presumably lead to the omission of the circuitry needed to adapt to different power source voltages), so the notable difference between these models is just that.
Wrong! The later models are the K-S1, K-S2 and K70 (which is based on the size of the K-S2): All of those are designed to be as small as possible. Sadly the design of the K-01 missed something which for most serious photographers is important: The view-finder and thus slower AF. An EFS would have made the camera larger but more flexible.

The answer (imo) was the K-S1, almost the same size/weight. It wasn't received that well either, so the new answer was the well received K-S2. The body of the K30/50 stems from the design of the K-x and even more the K-r. The K-r was the first one to allow Li-Ion as well as AA's. Many people love or need AA's for several reasons. (The K7/5/3 allow AA's but only via battery grip). The K-x was neat small. Small cameras are important for people with small hands (and particular small hands with small fingers). So if you please make the effort and you look into the battery compartment of your K-50 , what can you see if only the Li-Ion is inserted?

Well, very simple: Exactly 1,6 cm of (wasted?) space, the K50 (and K30/500) could be that bit less wide if this space would have been sacrificed for an only use with Li-Ion batteries and thats what they did with the K-S1 and K-S2.

Anyway, in a few cases the solenoid of the K-S1 and K-S2 made the same problems. Those cases reported proofed to be cameras made prior December 2015 which is the date Ricoh had done some changes to the design. What they did I can only find out if one of those fails and finds its way to me.

But a simple way to judge from another perspective:
Why did the solenoid in the K20D and K10D never fail which both ONLY use Li-Ion?
It never failed in the pre-DSLR analog bodies (but is slightly different which I will show soon) nor did it fail in all DSLR from the *istD up to the K-x and K-r!
Well, I have further proof but this will come later!

BUT: Never failure with a white solenoid. Neither in any camera I had repaired, any DSLR from *istD up to K-r ever reported not any report here nor in
French or German forums.

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
Looking at publicly available datasheets for similar solenoids
similar but not same.

QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
.....one can see that there's a clear minimum of holding power at a certain voltage, a deviation in both ways (higher and lower) increases the holding power ..
that's pretty simple and yes of course: Any deviation of voltage has an effect. But you cannot that easely enlarge the voltage coming out of a given (defined) powersupply because the powersupply is fix: Li-Ion or AA. I have made tests with the green solenoid and yes, if I apply a higher voltage it releases quicker.

That is common knowledge to those who know about how solenoids work. And if I apply lower voltage it will not release. Because a defined voltage defines the electro-magnetic field induced by the voltage into the 2 coils. Nothing new. But how would one get more voltage out of those Li-Ion batteries?
This would be a simple solution but this is not that easy. Have you had access to the powersupply which feeds the solenoid? No, not the batteries, there is no direct wire from the batteries to the solenoid! But this would be a modification to make a faulty part work better. It doesn't change the fault itself.
It is the surge of the two coils or better the "impuls" (defined and measured in amperes... here in mA) which is important in our case to explain why AA Eneloops or similar work (for a time but not always). I have explained this already and did so before!


QuoteOriginally posted by sys3175 Quote
(see this post K-50 / K-500 Aperture Solenoid fix (DIY with pics) - PentaxForums.com, there's a link to the moatech website where you can find the datasheets.)
The solenoids from moatech Korea are actually very different. I had thought once they might fit but I was mistaken.
Again, the only solenoid we are interested in are the original solenoids used by Pentax or Ricoh. Not such useless ones.

Last edited by photogem; 03-07-2019 at 04:23 AM.
03-07-2019, 11:18 AM - 1 Like   #836
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QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
But a simple way to judge from another perspective:
Why did the solenoid in the K20D and K10D never fail which both ONLY use Li-Ion?
It never failed in the pre-DSLR analog bodies (but is slightly different which I will show soon) nor did it fail in all DSLR from the *istD up to the K-x and K-r!
Well, I have further proof but this will come later!
In fact, aperture control still works on the Super Program which I purchased in Spring 1983 - almost 36 years ago - and I "retired" in summer 1995 {23-1/2 years ago}, and I have used only intermittently since then. I can't find it right now, but someone posted a photo of aperture control from this early KA-mount camera - and it has a familiar looking solenoid in it. If it were a K-30, this pattern of use and non-use would have doomed the aperture control. I'm guessing that this long history is one of the things which made it difficult for Pentax engineers to understand that the solenoid-based system was no longer reliable.
03-07-2019, 05:41 PM   #837
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All the technical details make sense. Poor quality control at the Chinese manufacturer. Ricoh knows.

I reached out to Ricoh regarding my shutter 5600 activations mint condition K-30. They replied that I should (of course) contact Precision Camera Repair regarding sending it in for possible out of warranty aperture block repair coverage. PCR replied- No such luck. As soon as I mentioned K-30 and aperture it is $212.50 and $19.95 return shipping. No way on a goodwill repair.

I canít do fiddling tiny repair work anymore due to diabetic neuropathy in my fingers, so the mint condition K-30 is now a quite useless paperweight. Have to use my wifeís K-r until I can buy a used K-3ii to replace the K-30 I bought new. Nuts!
03-07-2019, 09:23 PM   #838
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QuoteOriginally posted by steamloco76 Quote
All the technical details make sense. Poor quality control at the Chinese manufacturer. Ricoh knows.

I reached out to Ricoh regarding my shutter 5600 activations mint condition K-30. They replied that I should (of course) contact Precision Camera Repair regarding sending it in for possible out of warranty aperture block repair coverage. PCR replied- No such luck. As soon as I mentioned K-30 and aperture it is $212.50 and $19.95 return shipping. No way on a goodwill repair.

I canít do fiddling tiny repair work anymore due to diabetic neuropathy in my fingers, so the mint condition K-30 is now a quite useless paperweight. Have to use my wifeís K-r until I can buy a used K-3ii to replace the K-30 I bought new. Nuts!
Without any repair, you can use any lens with an aperture ring - you just have to use "green button" metering.
03-08-2019, 02:07 AM   #839
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QuoteOriginally posted by steamloco76 Quote
All the technical details make sense. Poor quality control at the Chinese manufacturer. Ricoh knows.

I reached out to Ricoh regarding my shutter 5600 activations mint condition K-30. They replied that I should (of course) contact Precision Camera Repair regarding sending it in for possible out of warranty aperture block repair coverage. PCR replied- No such luck. As soon as I mentioned K-30 and aperture it is $212.50 and $19.95 return shipping. No way on a goodwill repair.

I canít do fiddling tiny repair work anymore due to diabetic neuropathy in my fingers, so the mint condition K-30 is now a quite useless paperweight. Have to use my wifeís K-r until I can buy a used K-3ii to replace the K-30 I bought new. Nuts!
Try to find somebody (maybe a member here) who would be willing to repair it for you.

Otherwise, if you go the California way you have $ 100 + 2 x shipping costs and 1 year warranty. Maybe offer him to send the K30 there with a white solenoid?
Worth a try.


The problem is that Pentax Camera Repair in California does the sanding method. There have been reports of cameras having to be sent back because they failed again. But for lets say US$ 140 you get it cheaper than with PCR. I have no idea what they do but $ 212,50 is tough.
03-08-2019, 04:40 AM - 1 Like   #840
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QuoteOriginally posted by steamloco76 Quote
All the technical details make sense. Poor quality control at the Chinese manufacturer. Ricoh knows.

I reached out to Ricoh regarding my shutter 5600 activations mint condition K-30. They replied that I should (of course) contact Precision Camera Repair regarding sending it in for possible out of warranty aperture block repair coverage. PCR replied- No such luck. As soon as I mentioned K-30 and aperture it is $212.50 and $19.95 return shipping. No way on a goodwill repair.

I can’t do fiddling tiny repair work anymore due to diabetic neuropathy in my fingers, so the mint condition K-30 is now a quite useless paperweight. Have to use my wife’s K-r until I can buy a used K-3ii to replace the K-30 I bought new. Nuts!
I'm in Lancaster PA if that's anywhere near you. I might be able to help out. I'm not super confident but it might be an option. PM me and we can talk about it.

Last edited by Navmaxlp; 03-08-2019 at 05:22 AM.
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