[m42man]

Regarding my comment on "blame game" there appears to be some level of misunderstanding. It is not, as intimated, a reference to the fine art of gnome photography, instead I was referring to attributing a fault to a single cause, "you didn't use your camera enough, it is your fault it died! Bad Pentaxian!"

I don't see why there's any notion of there being a "blame game". The whole idea is to minimise the probability of a failure by trying to analyse what's happened in the past.

Photogem has, from his many posts on the subject in these forums, a great deal of experience regarding this failure. He could be the world authority. His advice is worth heeding. As far as my experience is concerned, two cameras, each failing, each immediately following the first substantial period of inactivity.

[Cerebum]

I don't see why there's any notion of there being a "blame game". The whole idea is to minimise the probability of a failure by trying to analyse what's happened in the past.

Photogem has, from his many posts on the subject in these forums, a great deal of experience regarding this failure. He could be the world authority. His advice is worth heeding. As far as my experience is concerned, two cameras, each failing, each immediately following the first substantial period of inactivity.

That wasn't what I meant. "Blame game" was too much of a cliche. I was only trying to say that attributing it to one thing was misleading as there are other instances where the norm wasn't the case. The term "blame game" relates to blaming something exclusively whilst disregarding all else. It was probably a poor choice of phrase as it was clearly misinterpreted. I also wasn't dismissing his knowledge. He clearly knows a great deal. What I was responding to was his very selective use of a very small cross section of my past posts to belittle what wasn't a confrontational post in the first place. He found an argument where there was none. All this was totally unnecessary!

[photogem]

I agree. And while “low shutter count” was found in some cameras the age of those was young.

That is wrong!
Young means "out of factory and right away ABF"! I had that once and that is long long time ago.
We actually hardly get to know about those young ones with low shutter-count!
Simply because when that happens there is still warranty, in Europe 2 years + often another 6 month for goodwill!
So there actually might be a very lot of those "young ones"!

My K70 failed young and still had warranty but I repaired it anyway because I knew this was the better option!

about the value of statistics:
Of course we don't have the possibility to study cases via approach of the German tank problem
I personally don't care too much about statistics but research by verifying!
I have repaired at least 50 Pentax bodies and I taught students and pupils how to do it because this way they can buy Pentax bodies with ABF, repair them and thus have the chance to have very good equipment for little money.
I did that once in a university for architecture and in a high-school for Media-Art+Design + Free Art.

Quite a few became quite fit with repairing Pentax bodies, some continued to do so to finance their studies because on a low budget.

Also I had the chance to actually measure the behaviour of different solenoids and solenoids "treated or modified" (such as sanding, greasing, demagnetizing etc.)

So yes, there is some experience and I question opinions based on never actually having toughed or seen a solenoid in real live and I also don't take accounts too serious when somebody exchanged one or two solenoids, allthough this is way better than speaking out of sheer theory or using google.


So here I come @Cerebum:
It took me a few minutes to google: "cerebum K-30 solenoid pentaxforums". It was not done to blame you but to verify which experience is behind your statements. Of course if you mix up 1500 actuations with 15000 and only notice this years later when quoted, this could appear quite handy, I am not saying at all this is so though!

Anybody being a serious member in this forum questioning that a shuttercount of 1500 is not low when the camera was used many years, well.... then lets use our Pentax equipment as decoration to show off when we have guests.

I use statistics when it is useful.
One statistic is very useful, an ongoing survey in the German Pentaxians forum since Febr. 2016:
K-30/K-50 Blendenproblem ? Wer ist (nicht) betroffen? ? Pentaxians
Only members are allowed to vote and with serial-number or part of the serial-number.
Very few members just registered for voting, less than 5%!)

Results April 2021:
K30: Total of 213 and 68% developed ABF
K50: Total of 140 and 48% ABF

This survey shows some interesting "side-results" if one studies it carefully:
1. At the beginning members not taking ABF serious at all but thinking it to be totally overblown, i.e. Pentaxbashing voted proudly:
My Pentax is fine
2. Quite a few of those later "catching ABF" but did not insert their findings in the survey (Loyalty)
3. Some members catching ABF didn't vote either (Loyalty)

4. K30 was more popular

5. K30 was more hit
6. K50 results with only 48% proves, that Ricoh modified the solenoid from Dec. 2015:

This can be seen in another ongoing survey which started Aug. 2017:
K-70 wer hat (keine?) Probleme mit Blendensteuerung? ? Pentaxians

K70: Total of 51: 6% developed ABF

But this survey is not representative, I know of 3 members owning K70's which caught ABF but did not vote.

And yet, I don't think it's 6% for the K70 nor 68% for the K30.
What I know from dealers is more like 1-2% for the K70 and 30% indeed for the K30.

I would say 18% for the K50, 30% K500, 12% K-S1 and K-S2)

Anybody claiming that 30% is not much: Well, it shows that there are different concepts of what logic could mean.

But maybe I am totally wrong and have to start anew again

[Cerebum]

That is wrong!
Young means "out of factory and right away ABF"! I had that once and that is long long time ago.
We actually hardly get to know about those young ones with low shutter-count!
Simply because when that happens there is still warranty, in Europe 2 years + often another 6 month for goodwill!
So there actually might be a very lot of those "young ones"!

My K70 failed young and still had warranty but I repaired it anyway because I knew this was the better option!

about the value of statistics:
Of course we don't have the possibility to study cases via approach of the German tank problem
I personally don't care too much about statistics but research by verifying!
I have repaired at least 50 Pentax bodies and I taught students and pupils how to do it because this way they can buy Pentax bodies with ABF, repair them and thus have the chance to have very good equipment for little money.
I did that once in a university for architecture and in a high-school for Media-Art+Design + Free Art.

Quite a few became quite fit with repairing Pentax bodies, some continued to do so to finance their studies because on a low budget.

Also I had the chance to actually measure the behaviour of different solenoids and solenoids "treated or modified" (such as sanding, greasing, demagnetizing etc.)

So yes, there is some experience and I question opinions based on never actually having toughed or seen a solenoid in real live and I also don't take accounts too serious when somebody exchanged one or two solenoids, allthough this is way better than speaking out of sheer theory or using google.


So here I come @Cerebum:
It took me a few minutes to google: "cerebum K-30 solenoid pentaxforums". It was not done to blame you but to verify which experience is behind your statements. Of course if you mix up 1500 actuations with 15000 and only notice this years later when quoted, this could appear quite handy, I am not saying at all this is so though!

Anybody being a serious member in this forum questioning that a shuttercount of 1500 is not low when the camera was used many years, well.... then lets use our Pentax equipment as decoration to show off when we have guests.

I use statistics when it is useful.
One statistic is very useful, an ongoing survey in the German Pentaxians forum since Febr. 2016:
K-30/K-50 Blendenproblem ? Wer ist (nicht) betroffen? ? Pentaxians
Only members are allowed to vote and with serial-number or part of the serial-number.
Very few members just registered for voting, less than 5%!)

Results April 2021:
K30: Total of 213 and 68% developed ABF
K50: Total of 140 and 48% ABF

This survey shows some interesting "side-results" if one studies it carefully:
1. At the beginning members not taking ABF serious at all but thinking it to be totally overblown, i.e. Pentaxbashing voted proudly:
My Pentax is fine
2. Quite a few of those later "catching ABF" but did not insert their findings in the survey (Loyalty)
3. Some members catching ABF didn't vote either (Loyalty)

4. K30 was more popular

5. K30 was more hit
6. K50 results with only 48% proves, that Ricoh modified the solenoid from Dec. 2015:

This can be seen in another ongoing survey which started Aug. 2017:
K-70 wer hat (keine?) Probleme mit Blendensteuerung? ? Pentaxians

K70: Total of 51: 6% developed ABF

But this survey is not representative, I know of 3 members owning K70's which caught ABF but did not vote.

And yet, I don't think it's 6% for the K70 nor 68% for the K30.
What I know from dealers is more like 1-2% for the K70 and 30% indeed for the K30.

I would say 18% for the K50, 30% K500, 12% K-S1 and K-S2)

Anybody claiming that 30% is not much: Well, it shows that there are different concepts of what logic could mean.

But maybe I am totally wrong and have to start anew again

OK, let's cap this off. I think you may have misunderstood my intended meaning in my initial post which led to this conflict. I never disputed your knowledge which is clearly impressive. 30% is a lot and we never said it wasn't but you were arguing about semantics. As for typos, they mostly go unnoticed until they are pointed out. Thank you for pointing this out. Regarding your suggestion that my cameras are decorative, i take 1k+ images per month and am a regular contributor to the single in challenge. Your point has been made, as has mine so let's leave it there before the mods get involved.

---

Last edited by Cerebum; 04-12-2021 at 02:23 AM.

[photogem]

OK, let's cap this off. I think you may have misunderstood my intended meaning in my initial post which led to this conflict. I never disputed your knowledge which is clearly impressive. 30% is a lot and we never said it wasn't but you were arguing about semantics. As for typos, they mostly go unnoticed until they are pointed out. Thank you for pointing this out. Regarding your suggestion that my cameras are decorative, i take 1k+ images per month and am a regular contributor to the single in challenge. Your point has been made, as has mine so let's leave it there before the mods get involved.

Well, it wasn't just me who then misunderstood your intended meaning.
When I read "blame game" I understand blame game. There is not much headroom there for misunderstandings.

Also I don't understand why moderators should get involved, this is mainly about the relation of shuttercount and ABF.
I must have missed something here?


Some have questioned that low shuttercount and low use are related to ABF.
But not because there is any evidence but because it is a guess. Based on zero evidence actually.

Fact is it is related and have have explained it.

Because it is a very important fact and it sure points out to a weakness which easely can be solved because actually actuating the aperture via a solenoid was a fantastic invention by Pentax, worked for a long time very presice and without even the slightest problems and should not just be
abolished as some demand because it allows a DSLR which is smaller and lighter.

So understanding the reason behind low shuttercount and ABF is very important for solving it in long term.


There are many dealers (on ebay and Amazon, so called market-place sellers) who sell 2.nd hand Pentax bodies.
Most of them never heard of ABF.

When they sell a body which was stored for a longer time and thus developed ABF we won't hear about it.
Simply because if you buy 2nd hand from a dealer you have a limited warranty, in Europe often up to 2 years.
Plus by law 14 days return without any explanation.
So all these won't show up in any statistics!

Rare exception:
A US member here in the forum purchased a rare pink K50 from Japan, it arrived but had ABF.
This is one of the more rare cases because return shipping to Japan is expensive.
So he asked questions here in the forum, got answers, got a good deal of his money back and repaired it himself.
As said, this is rare.

You see, it is not so much about semantic arguing but is about understanding why "young bodies" with ABF will not show up in statistics
nor anywhere else.


It is not about young bodies, it is about low or even zero shuttercount but we won't hear about it.

[Cerebum]

Post deleted. Some comments were based on my misreading of @photogem 's post and the last thing I want to be is unfair

Apologies if anyone was offended by my use of "blame game". I never intend to offend but sometimes my phrasing is unnecessarily complex, so the easiest thing to do is not comment.

[UncleVanya]

Consider this:

Human recall is not infallible.

Use of camera gear Is likely more intermittent than not.

One or two failures in a session early in the failure of the cameras may be dismissed as a glitch.

The use of the gear after it sits may coincide with higher failure, but it may also represent more noticed failure. And potentially the failure may come during times when the cameras might be more needed (special occasions, trips, etc. ) for those who use their gear less frequently.

Shutter count <> Use patterns, but low counts can inform us since a low count reduces the chance someone shot frequently unless they shot very small numbers of images a day. Conversely high shutter counts can be created by someone shooting high burst rate on an infrequent basis.

We have no data on normal usage patterns of these or even unaffected cameras in which to base conclusions other than user relayed data.

In an area where I do have expertise (sdm) I can suggest that failing sdm seems to benefit from regular use, but inactivity alone doesn’t seem likely to cause of failure unlike what many suggest on the forum. This is based on the observation that new old stock systems rarely have sdm failure out of the box and the number of reportedly working lenses without regular use and conversations with customers about their failures. But, if I’m really honest, even this is hard to back up with any hard facts. My customers recollections aren’t infallible and I don’t keep statistical data on this.

I don’t disagree that this failure in aperture blocks happens, or that the method of replacement is appropriate. I disagree with what seems like an attribution of failure to inactivity - when clearly at least two people (in this thread alone) who regularly used their cameras report failure unrelated to inactivity. Exceptions do however occur so without hard unbiased data it is very difficult to draw conclusions. It is also possible that there are multiple failure scenarios that do not all manifest from the same exact cause but have a common fix.

I object to the tone this thread has taken. This feels like a holy war, when it should be a civil discussion of the facts and opinions without rancor. I question the value of continued discussion but I’m optimistic so I am trying to explain the reason for my skeptical thinking on the topic of inactivity with respect to the failures.

[m42man]

I object to the tone this thread has taken. This feels like a holy war, when it should be a civil discussion of the facts and opinions without rancor. I question the value of continued discussion but I’m optimistic so I am trying to explain the reason for my skeptical thinking on the topic of inactivity with respect to the failures.

I'm afraid you're not helping. Why not just accept the evidence described in this thread, that the failure can occur at any time, but is more likely after a period of inactivity?

Not that it matters that much - sensible users will try to make sure they use their cameras on a fairly regular basis. No great hardship!

[Cerebum]

I'm afraid you're not helping. Why not just accept the evidence described in this thread, that the failure can occur at any time, but is more likely after a period of inactivity?

Not that it matters that much - sensible users will try to make sure they use their cameras on a fairly regular basis. No great hardship!

How is this not helping? Vanya is merely suggesting we keep an open mind whilst you are advocating blind acceptance and the total dismissal of the evidence of our own eyes. @photogem has put forward a compelling body of research with the zeal of someone who truly believes. I also choose to believe that his findings are accurate and true, however, my own experience proves that while comprehensive, the findings cannot be exclusive. Other factors may well be at play and that is what Vanya was saying. I believe photogem is the real deal but the devils advocate in me points out we don't know him from Adam (as in Adam and Eve) and we have all experienced zealots who turned out to be charlatans. Photogems research and hypothesis backs up the prevailing opinion as to the great aperture block question but every point EVERY POINT raised by Vanya is equally valid and should be considered here. so, I return to my question, how is that not helpful? Because I for one am learning from both sides of the discussion.

[photogem]

Then lets have some facts (all with snapshots, i.e. I can prove each single one)

I did not keep all snapshots and there were quite a few more with low shuttercount, one K50 for sure below 100, the only
young one):

K30: 4567
K30: 4566
K30: 8615
K30: 6951
K30: 9408
K30: 5495
K30: 4400
K30: 5172
K30: 6401
K30: 2430
K30: 4566
K30: 2437
K30: 3916
K30: 4410
K30: 3489
K30: 3792
K30: 5676

K50: 7530
K50: 1672
K50: 1306
K50: 4030
K50: 4100
K50: 885

K500: 6754
K500: 317

K-S1: 1910
K-S1: 3283
K-S1: 380
K-S1: 7171
K-S1: 5830
K-S1: 1270
K-S1: 6374
K-S1: 396
K-S1: 3080
K-S1: 2985
K-S1: 4809
K-S1: 6
K-S1: 550

K-S2: 9730
K-S2: 2352
K-S2: 67
K-S2: 679
K-S2: 9995
K-S2: 2352

K-70: 1806

Above 10.000 actuations we have:



1 x K70 with 11864 after 1 1/2 years (my own)

4 x K30

1 x K500
3 x K50
0 x K-S1
0 x K-S2

So, I must admit, I was wrong, I have repaired quite a few more than just 50.
K-S1 with 1910 was not used for 6 month! I know this from quite a lot bodies and logic from any intelligent engineer will right away understand why it is so.
It is a simple matter and to me (and many others) fact and not an ant and bee make believe rainbow


The figures of the K-S1 speak particular for themselves:
It was sold much more to young people who used it for holidays or at the beginning, then got comfy and used their smartphone instead.
Then "waking it up" suprise surprise.

Another pair of K-S1's within the family:
1 was used regularely, the other hardly at all.
When No 1 failed with ABF she got the other one out, it hadn't be used for a long time and had as well low shuttercount.
But right away black pictures!


I repaired both together.

The one with low shuttercount is still hardly used. But the problem never arises.

Same for my K10D, I hardly use it anymore but keep it for nostalgic reasons.
But when I try it, it works: White Japan solenoid!


So anybody trying to argue:


Bring some evidence of your own research

but stop arguing for arguments sake

It is misleading others!
We have enough misleading stuff going on during this crisis, we don't need more of it.

And those who use Marc Twains sayings should start researching as well instead of arguing with to me empty arguments.
(But maybe I missed something here and Marc Twain was a professional Pentax user!)


It is too easy to say just "no" and not involve oneself with real research.

But I will stop within this thread now, I think everything important was brought forward, let the readers deside.

[texandrews]

Allright... this thread has heated up too much. All those involved in what has now become an argument please take a day off from this thread so it cools down.

And really I'm not interested in who started it, or why, or who responded how. Plenty of problems here on multiple parties' parts. The rule to follow on the forums is: don't give offense, and if offended walk away.

[swanlefitte]

Edit was checking shutter and stats when the former msg was posted. Just checked my ks2 shutter count from around the time if failed. Not exact time but within a month. 28630. I shoot regularly. Average of about 15/day over 5 years, rarely over 100/day rarely 0/day. Longest left alone was 10 days years ago, 3 or more days maybe 10 times.
I would guess 95% of cameras are left sitting which would mean 95% correlation but not causation. If you had 100 broken you would expect 5 with high shutter count. If you only had 2 how high is the confidence level if 95-5%? If it was 5-95% it is high. How high is the confidence level on how the population uses cameras? How biased are the reported data points? There are a lot of guesses going in

[swanlefitte]

I would like to see data for use rates of cameras in the general population. Since my last post I have only found one place with actual data and it is for phone cameras. It only helps with educated speculative guesses. Here it is but I would hope we could see some data more appropriate to use as control.
Special report: How we really use our camera phones – Gigaom
It is mildly interesting on its own.

[senpyi]

Well, since someone else decided to resurrect your thread today, I had to drop by and point out that it's about time you shared some photos taken with that new camera of yours!

In all seriousness though, should you have the failed solenoid in your K30, it should be a *very* easy repair. I would suggest it is always a good idea to have an electronics hobbyist within your circle of friends. I have benefited from just that! I have just purchased a K-70 and was warned that the solenoid may also fail in this model. There are great tutorials in these forums for replacing the solenoid be user @photogem

Manual: Solenoid Replacment Pentax K-30/50/500 + Discharge of flash-condenser - PentaxForums.com

The repair requires a replacement solenoid taken from an older model Pentax DSLR. The repair only requires keeping a bunch of small screws properly organized and desoldering two wires, then soldering in the replacement solenoid. It should be an extremely simple task for anyone with experience in this area (people that are into ham radio, DIY drone building, model trains, etc. will often have the needed skills and tools).

Now, let's see some K30 photos!

~ Jon

Hi Jon,

Sorry for the really late reply! Here is a link to a flickr album with some photos I have taken: https://www.flickr.com/gp/192855116@N08/Stzv6C and also my photography portfolio: Robyn Tonge - Work. Hope you like the photos I've taken! Please let me know if you have any feedback!


-Robyn

[jon.partsch]

Hi Jon,

Sorry for the really late reply! Here is a link to a flickr album with some photos I have taken: https://www.flickr.com/gp/192855116@N08/Stzv6C and also my photography portfolio: Robyn Tonge - Work. Hope you like the photos I've taken! Please let me know if you have any feedback!


-Robyn

Hello Robyn,

I checked out these photos and they are fantastic! Thank you for sharing the link you your work with the K30! The only thing I would say about these is that some of them are a bit over-saturated for my taste, but that's just my taste, not a technical or artistic criticism. I hope you will choose to share some of your work in the forums here. You are going to be a great addition to the community!

~ Jon