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05-05-2010, 06:53 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Once FF dSLRs enter the price range of high end APS-C dSLRs, APS-C loses the only actual advantage it ever had - cost. The "perceived" advantages, as you put it so well, are just that - perceptions, and those are based on a very successful marketing campaign, not on ACTUAL advantages. One need only consider the answer to the following questions to bare the reality of the so-called "advantages" of APS-C:

Would you buy a 645D with a 24 x 36mm sensor in it?

If not, why not?

Essentially, that's exactly what you've done with APS-C dSLRs, is to buy into a camera made for a bigger format with a smaller format sensor in it. APS-C is and always was a compromise introduced for the sole reason that larger sensors were too difficult to make and too expensive to sell to most of the camera market at the time. As the fabrication tachnology and techniques are advanced and the costs of FF sensors come down, that sole reason for the APS-Compromise will be eliminated. You can rationalize the supposed advantages all you like (easy to do when you have no other choices), but the reality is that with APS-C dSLRs you have a camera and lenses that are much bigger and heavier than need be, due to the need to maintain backward compatibility with the larger 35mm format the cameras are based on (lens mount, register distance, etc. are dictated by 35mm, not APS-C, thereby making the cameras bigger and heavier), and absent the advantage of being cheap by comparison, not many would have ever "chosen" them. A price floor will be encountered based on the cost of the camera components other than the sensors, which means that as the FF sensor costs come down, the prices will get closer together, and as that happens, suddenly FF cameras will expand their market penetration and a new marketing campaign will arrive to remind people what they've been missing.

There isn't any APS-C camera that Pentax will make (particularly in view of the assertion that Pentax doesn't plan to push the envelope on frame rates and the like) that will justify prices higher than the K7, so any "improvements" on what you have with the K7 are just things to put into K7 successors - a product above the K7 ("professional" grade, if you will, though I know that word raises a lot of needless arguments) NEEDS to be a full 35mm format. No intermediate steps (APS-H, or APS-ANYTHING), will do at this point - there has already been too much foot dragging.

It's been a long wait, Pentax - time for your FF dSLRs already!
Hear, hear

The point about frame rates is another reason why a small FF sensored DSLR can be made.

05-05-2010, 06:56 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
You seem to think that FF is made big simply because the senosr is big, but this is not the case.
This is your extrapolation. I have said no such thing, and frankly, by this point your suppositions are getting tiresome.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
Also, the telephoto advantage is a fallacy.
Read what I said: "Right now those perceived advantages include size, cost and more telephoto reach. " Note the word "perceived". It's there for a reason.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
They are stilled aimed at the pros who require big robust cameras for the rigours of pro use.
Untrue. Many FF cameras are firmly aimed at non-pro use. Otherwise there would be no market. Of all the people who have bought FF cameras, how may do you think are pros? 5%? 1%?

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
Those that have gone to 4/3rds are not generally advanced amateurs looking for the best IQ they can get in a body the size of a high end DSLR. These are mostly point and shooters or weekend photographers looking for smaller cameras.
Please start referencing this data you state as fact.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
Also, the reason some are going to 4/3rds is simply because the difference between APS C and 4/3rds is minimal, wheras the difference between FF and 4/3rds is huge.
And the difference between technical cameras and 4/3 is even bigger. So?

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
Imagine a FF camera but the size of an APS C camera compared to a 4/3rds camera and you can then see sticking to a DSLR of the size of a current APS C camera but with a FF sensor then makes alot of sense. I know what I would choose.
Imagine that you can take photos just by thinking about them, with a chip embedded in your retina. Who will use SLRs then?
05-05-2010, 07:02 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
APS-C is and always was a compromise introduced for the sole reason that larger sensors were too difficult to make and too expensive to sell to most of the camera market at the time.
35mm was a compromise introduced for those novices too impatient to learn real photography with technical and medium format cameras. The only actual niche it had in professional work was certain limited fields of journalism.

So buy a field camera and give up your limited 35mm perceptions.
05-05-2010, 07:05 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote

Imagine that you can take photos just by thinking about them, with a chip embedded in your retina. Who will use SLRs then?
Uh...how do you download the photos?

05-05-2010, 07:27 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
This is your extrapolation. I have said no such thing, and frankly, by this point your suppositions are getting tiresome.
LOL. You don't have to read them.

QuoteQuote:
Read what I said: "Right now those perceived advantages include size, cost and more telephoto reach. " Note the word "perceived". It's there for a reason.
Ahh, I see, then that makes it ok then. It still doesn't change the facts.

QuoteQuote:
Untrue. Many FF cameras are firmly aimed at non-pro use. Otherwise there would be no market. Of all the people who have bought FF cameras, how may do you think are pros? 5%? 1%?
Yes, there are some that are not completely pro spec, but they are also still very expensive in comparison to top end APS C and as they are more expensive at their current price level they are therefore required to have more features and therefore also end up being larger. Make no mistake. once FF sensor costs get to low enough, we will have FF sensored cameras at current high end APS C prices and size. It is only a matter of time.

QuoteQuote:
Please start referencing this data you state as fact.
Don't start this "quote facts" crap. No matter what is put forward, it is always speculation even if there are surveys and market research done.

QuoteQuote:
And the difference between technical cameras and 4/3 is even bigger. So?
So, you don't want better IQ? That's great. You are the minority. Go about your way.

QuoteQuote:
Imagine that you can take photos just by thinking about them, with a chip embedded in your retina. Who will use SLRs then?
This just shows the ridiculousness of your argument. It is hard to have a serious discussion with idiotic statements like this.
05-05-2010, 08:03 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by bogiesbad Quote
Uh...how do you download the photos?
Bluetooth.
05-06-2010, 02:45 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Imagine that you can take photos just by thinking about them, with a chip embedded in your retina. Who will use SLRs then?
The human eye's aperture is too small for good high iso performance. You don't know only because the brain refuses to let you pixel peep the data

Of course, an owl may have a different opinion about this
05-06-2010, 03:04 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
A cropped 200mm shot from a 24Mp FF sensor would be just as good as that from an 14Mp APS C camera with a 300mm lens.
Do you have that right? a 300 on the small sensor=450 on the big sensor (angle of view).

Would a FF shot cropped to same field of view as a small sensor (71%?) be as sharp as the small sensor one? IF so does the FF need 141% the no. of pixels to be as sharp? ( I may have these numbers wrong!)

I guess what I'm asking is (a) does the FF need more pixels to have the same sharpness over the same field of view (b) if it does need more, how many more?

05-06-2010, 03:18 AM   #144
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Arpe -> You can see a 14Mp aps-c sensor as a ~32Mp FF sensor that automatically crops the image.
If a FF pentax comes out I plan to use my 55-300 on the tele end to start with. I could still get the image that I would get from a crop camera I would get new lens for normal and wide though.

Last edited by Supernaut; 05-06-2010 at 03:47 AM. Reason: Numbers... :D
05-06-2010, 03:44 AM   #145
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If my calculations are correct, a 14MP APS-C sensor is like a cropped 33MP "FF" sensor. And you can use the same lenses in both cases, with the same result.
05-06-2010, 03:48 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If my calculations are correct, a 14MP APS-C sensor is like a cropped 33MP "FF" sensor. And you can use the same lenses in both cases, with the same result.
Yes, I have corrected my post.
05-06-2010, 03:53 AM   #147
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So a 24mp FF cropped to APS-C size wouldn't be as sharp as a 14mp APS-C photo?
05-06-2010, 03:55 AM   #148
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It would look like a ~10MP APS-C sensor. Not too bad, but not that great either.
05-06-2010, 05:20 AM   #149
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Well I've read a lot of the foregoing, not all by a long way. My position is this.

I have a K10D and a K20D. The best peforming lens on those bodies are my FF ones. By a long way.

So, here's the rub. If the next top camera from Pentax is not FF, and I don't mind if it is a bit pricey, I'll buy it if it's less than a 5D MkII.

If the next top camera body isn't a FF, then I'll buy a 5D MkII or D700s. It'll hurt, but I'll do it.
05-06-2010, 05:53 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tringle WP Quote
Well I've read a lot of the foregoing, not all by a long way. My position is this.

I have a K10D and a K20D. The best peforming lens on those bodies are my FF ones. By a long way.

So, here's the rub. If the next top camera from Pentax is not FF, and I don't mind if it is a bit pricey, I'll buy it if it's less than a 5D MkII.

If the next top camera body isn't a FF, then I'll buy a 5D MkII or D700s. It'll hurt, but I'll do it.
I assume you meant that you'd buy the next top camera from Pentax if it IS FF?

And: Keep in mind that when you use FF lenses on APS-C, you're using their "sweet spot". Not all FF lenses are quite as good on full frame, dpreview's parallel tests on cropped and FF show this quite well.

My greatest frustration if I eventually upgrade to a Pentax FF will be that the DA35 macro will be almost unusable. That lens is almost glued to my camera these days. The DA70 seems to be quite fine on FF, though, at least for portrait and other use where corner sharpness isn't important.
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