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05-10-2010, 03:18 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by turbosaturn Quote
How ready is it? Are there production samples that are already being tested on the field? Can you show a comparison of Pentax's new SR and Sony's to show their similarities? Where's the evidence that it's more efficient?

Don't get me wrong. It would be really nice to get a FF Pentax dslr. I would get in line to get one if I was sure that it was coming out. It's just that there hasn't really been any solid clues from Pentax that they are indeed moving in that direction to release a FF dslr in the next few months. It just seems that they are too tight lipped in revealing anything until it's already being shipped to retailers just as it's released.
Don't worry, I understand what you mean and feel. Me too, 1 year ago, I was like you until I discovered that I need a FF camera such as a D700 since APS-C sensors cannot yet give me the performance I need (night shooting).
So recently I started to expect for such a FF camera. And some small clues came to me, as I explained in my previous posts. I also think that Sony is not earning as much money as expected with the production of his FF sensors (since the sells of FF alpha is quite low), so I am pretty sure they would love to find some offer company helping them to reduce the production cost (but sadly for me, it would probably be for the 24Mpxl sensor, not the fantastic 12MPxl one... )
About the "new" shake reduction system they patented in January (so not yet released), it appeared to be quite similar to Sony's system (using guide bars), much more strong and rigid enough for FF sensors compared to the actual "floating" system. And for what I know, Sony's SR is better than Pentax's one.
Now it's not a surprise that Pentax doesn't say anything before to release the bodies. They always did like that, Hoya increased this "secret keeper" way to do, so whatever are the new bodies, we will not have any "unofficial" (and maybe even not any leak) information before the last days preceding Official announcement.

05-10-2010, 02:24 PM   #197
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Thanks for the Patent Link!

Thanks for the patent link Youky63!

When Pentax first brought out a DSLR (the *ist D in 2003) the cost was around $2,000.00 for a 6MP CCD APS-C camera. In 2010, Pentax' basic DSLR, the K-X, sells for around $500.00 with a CMOS sensor, Shake Reduction, Video and other handy features that smoke the original *ist D. Prices do come down like they will with FF DSLR's.

All the gripes on the forum that Pentax can't do this or that don't hold much water. Hoya is at the wheel now. Hoya is a smart, aggressive corporation that is looking to grow the Pentax brand again. There are less profits on the low end side of the market.

The R&D (like the new FF Sensor Shake Reduction System) and other costs that Hoya/Pentax incur might not be recouped in the initial FF DSLR, but rather over the course or the first few FF camera models. Especially the new Shake Reduction system.

Even if the Shake Reduction System shown in the patent application is not superior to Sony's, it's a good start. Pentax improved their original Shake Reduction System for their APS-C cameras with the release of the K-7. Even if the new FF Shake Reduction System is just a one stop increase (I'm not saying it is, just using an example!) it will allow you to double your shutter speed or open up another f stop. This partnered with the increase ISO performance of the FF sensor will allow for some great photos.

Sony has been working on a replacement FF sensor for the older 24MP FF sensor that is in the Sony A900, Sony A850 and Nikon D3x. The older FF Sony sensor was noisy with poor low light abilities. It was also difficult for Sony to fabricate which led to small yields and very high sensor prices. Sony has learned a lot from producing this sensor and a new less expensive FF sensor is on the way. I don't believe that Hoya/Pentax will get the old 24MP sensor, but rather the new Sony FF sensor which is rumored to be between 18-20MP. I haven't read anything about Sony updating the old FF 24MP sensor so it may be phased out. Sony is rumored to be working on an extreme FF sensor that's between 30-40MP. The price tag of the sensor will no doubt reflect its performance.

The Nikon D700 uses a 12MP FF sensor that was designed and built by Nikon. Nikon appears to be moving away from sensor production because of the rumored replacement for the FF D700 (called D700s or D800) is rumored to use the new Sony FF sensor (around 20 MP but with some custom features exclusive to Nikon). Nikon's financial statement from last year also included large write offs for fabricating machines. This might have been a signal they are pulling back on sensor production. Nikon has been stalling the release of the new D700s, I believe they are doing this because the company still has quite a bit of old D700 stock. Hence the rebates. Bigger price drops from Nikon are coming on this model.

The D700 is a nice camera but at $2500.00 it's a bit pricey. Plus the Nikon mount is way too restrictive. I love Pentax for a number of reasons but the endless legacy glass options I have means a lot to me. Not possible with Nikon. Do I also want to pay extra for a Nikon just to have Ashton Kutcher as a spokesperson? Heck no!

I'm happy with Pentax and look forward to a FF Pentax DSLR. I can't wait to see what great new D-FA lenses Pentax brings out for the new FF line. We should know more at Photokina this year.

With all of the DA lenses that were sold I don't see Pentax turning their back on their base. I would expect the new FF Pentax DSLR to have a crop mode (like Nikon FF cameras). If that doesn't interest photographers with a lot of DA glass than I'm sure Pentax will still produce some great APS-C cameras like the K-X, upcoming K-5 or the current K-7 in the future for them. No need to worry or gripe about FF!





QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
Don't worry, I understand what you mean and feel. Me too, 1 year ago, I was like you until I discovered that I need a FF camera such as a D700 since APS-C sensors cannot yet give me the performance I need (night shooting).
So recently I started to expect for such a FF camera. And some small clues came to me, as I explained in my previous posts. I also think that Sony is not earning as much money as expected with the production of his FF sensors (since the sells of FF alpha is quite low), so I am pretty sure they would love to find some offer company helping them to reduce the production cost (but sadly for me, it would probably be for the 24Mpxl sensor, not the fantastic 12MPxl one... )
About the "new" shake reduction system they patented in January (so not yet released), it appeared to be quite similar to Sony's system (using guide bars), much more strong and rigid enough for FF sensors compared to the actual "floating" system. And for what I know, Sony's SR is better than Pentax's one.
Now it's not a surprise that Pentax doesn't say anything before to release the bodies. They always did like that, Hoya increased this "secret keeper" way to do, so whatever are the new bodies, we will not have any "unofficial" (and maybe even not any leak) information before the last days preceding Official announcement.
05-10-2010, 04:49 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
New SR apparatus
Thanks for the link. Much appreciated!

The patent makes reference to a loosely related idea patented by Toshiba.

I don't see a clear sign that this is FF related but I agree, signs are converging... Also, the drawings make the sensor plate look rather large, in proportion to the mount hole.

The original patent is filed in 2008. This is interesting because it is my guess that Hoya actually started their FF developments in 2008. The year they flushed all remaining DA lenses (except a late running DA15) and remained silent since.
05-10-2010, 04:56 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The original patent is filed in 2008. This is interesting because it is my guess that Hoya actually started their FF developments in 2008. The year they flushed all remaining DA lenses (except a late running DA15) and remained silent since.
That does make a certain narrative sense.

I do hope they keep making K-7 level enthusiast APS-C cameras until they can make FF in that form-factor -- never mind the price.

05-10-2010, 08:46 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
You mean something like... that? New SR apparatus
I'm joining all the others, thanking you for posting the link.

If that's what we'll get, though, then it means no more compensation of rotational shake and no more (hardware supported) automatic horizon correction.

Perhaps its just a patent to block others from simplifying their designs. Do you have to use a patent in production in order keep the claim?
05-11-2010, 02:10 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Do you have to use a patent in production in order keep the claim?
No. But I believe it's not Pentax tradition to do this. Moreover, looks a lot like material right from their product development dep. However, it may be we see the SR "apparatus" of a forthcoming 645DII though. The depicted body looks like a hybrid of current APSC bodies and the 645D body. Which could just be a hint for FF though.

Nevertheless, I don't see how the current SR drive could be in trouble with only 1.5 worse surface/edge ratio.
05-11-2010, 03:21 AM   #202
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Camera on the drawing is a ist-D.
05-11-2010, 03:54 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Camera on the drawing is a ist-D.
Thanks for the clarification.

05-11-2010, 04:53 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thanks for the clarification.
You're welcome. AFAIK Pentax always uses ist-D or slightly modified ist-D drawings in their patents applications.
05-11-2010, 08:16 AM   #205
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I can't read all these speculations / wishes anymore. I need some REAL rumor!! Come on, someone from pentax, get us some leak!!
05-11-2010, 08:37 AM   #206
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I remember when someone first linked to that patent on this board everyone assumed it was a shake reduction system for the 645D. Is it still possible that they would use it in a future update to the 645D?

If so, this would also be promising news. Not that I could afford it, but it would still be good news.
05-11-2010, 12:20 PM   #207
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Sony Discontinues A900

This was posted on photorumors:

Sony ?900 is now officially discontinued | Photo Rumors

Sony is discontinuing the A900 and I bet the A850 is not far behind. Both cameras use the older Sony 24MP FF Sensor that was not a very good performer and expensive for Sony to fabricate. I don't see Pentax using the older sensor because it looks like Sony is phasing it out. The next Sony flagship (A900 replacement) is thought to have a 30-40MP FF sensor.

The other FF Sensor that Sony is rumored to be making is the 18-20MP one that will be in the replacement for the Nikon D700, Sony A850 and possibly the Pentax FF DSLR. All are rumored to be more reasonably priced FF DSLRs.

Samsung is still in the sensor production loop somewhere, but they aren't really showing their hand.
05-15-2010, 02:36 AM   #208
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I got an interesting news for you guys, and especially for Lance B.
You were asking when a FF body would be the same price than an APS-C body? I can tell you: TODAY!
I just come back from my closer (giant) camera shop (Yamada Denki) and played around with some body, I wanted to compare the size VF and body, AF speed and weight of D700, D300s, alpha900, 7D, K7, etc...
After a few minutes playing with the D700, I checked the price: about 2000 dollars. 20cm on the left of it was the D300s and it's price: 2000 dollars!!
So, yes, it is possible to get FF camera at the same price than high end APS-C bodies.

For the size, it was not th 1st time I was playing with it but it was the 1st time it didn't seems too much big and heavy in my hand (but still ergonomically crappy compared to K-7!).
So if Pentax do not release FF before the D700 reaches 1500 dollars (probably a few weeks/months after the release of its update) I will certainly also switch to another brand...
05-15-2010, 04:40 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
I got an interesting news for you guys, and especially for Lance B.
You were asking when a FF body would be the same price than an APS-C body? I can tell you: TODAY!
I just come back from my closer (giant) camera shop (Yamada Denki) and played around with some body, I wanted to compare the size VF and body, AF speed and weight of D700, D300s, alpha900, 7D, K7, etc...
After a few minutes playing with the D700, I checked the price: about 2000 dollars. 20cm on the left of it was the D300s and it's price: 2000 dollars!!
So, yes, it is possible to get FF camera at the same price than high end APS-C bodies.

For the size, it was not th 1st time I was playing with it but it was the 1st time it didn't seems too much big and heavy in my hand (but still ergonomically crappy compared to K-7!).
So if Pentax do not release FF before the D700 reaches 1500 dollars (probably a few weeks/months after the release of its update) I will certainly also switch to another brand...
Thank you for the post, youky63.

I am going to run dual systems for a while, the K-7 and the NikonD700. I finally handled a D700 with a battery and found it quite a good thing. I will keep most of me FA/A lenses and hope that Pentax go FF one day.
05-15-2010, 04:49 AM   #210
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Two years ago in May I bought 5D for $1750

Two years ago in May 2008 I bought brand new 5D for $1750

I found that was a very good price point for full frame dslr, so I bought two.

I still have some Pentax gear and K20D left. I am certain now Pentax will never offer full frame. I still like user interface of K20D and my remaining lenses are fun to use but I am slowly heading for the exit.

There will never be a 24x36 Pentax dslr unless Hoya sells Pentax cameras division off to someone who cares to make full frame happen.

In the meantime I'm following the same seller whom I bought my two 5D at $1750 a piece, two years ago this month.
Thesedays 5D Mark II can be bought for $2,125 or a bit more.
They've sold about 200 "split kit" Canon 5D Mark II past couple months in open auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360261548867

"Split kit" offers are where the seller removes the included 24-105mm f4 IS lens from the kit.
That lens is then sold as "white box" with full warranty and its warranty card included. Its a "white box" lens as the box is white with no printing on it.

When 5D Mark II is $1,999 I'll buy one.
I suspect $1999 5D Mark II will happen when 2010 Photokina is happening, so just 4 to 5 months from now.



QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
I got an interesting news for you guys, and especially for Lance B.
You were asking when a FF body would be the same price than an APS-C body? I can tell you: TODAY!
I just come back from my closer (giant) camera shop (Yamada Denki) and played around with some body, I wanted to compare the size VF and body, AF speed and weight of D700, D300s, alpha900, 7D, K7, etc...
After a few minutes playing with the D700, I checked the price: about 2000 dollars. 20cm on the left of it was the D300s and it's price: 2000 dollars!!
So, yes, it is possible to get FF camera at the same price than high end APS-C bodies.

For the size, it was not th 1st time I was playing with it but it was the 1st time it didn't seems too much big and heavy in my hand (but still ergonomically crappy compared to K-7!).
So if Pentax do not release FF before the D700 reaches 1500 dollars (probably a few weeks/months after the release of its update) I will certainly also switch to another brand...

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-15-2010 at 05:26 AM.
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