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05-03-2010, 10:41 AM   #16
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While I would love it if Pentax eventually releases a full frame camera, I'm not going to plan on them actually doing so until the official announcement has been made. Suprise me, Pentax!

This said, using both the K-x and K-7 as a combo has made me appreciate the quality of the K-x sensor and the overall high quality performance of the K-7. If Pentax does nothing else except combine the best parts of these two cameras, with some other improvements to allow them to compete with the Canon 7D and Nikon D300s, I think that will be something to be very excited about for Pentax users.

05-03-2010, 11:28 AM   #17
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How about a K200D/K20D with a K-x sensor? I'd buy two.. promise!
05-03-2010, 12:00 PM   #18
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As I've said before here, I'm not holding my breath for a full-frame camera from Pentax and I'm not sure I would buy one if they released it. Not sure I'll be able to afford it, and besides, I've been making my lens-buying decisions for the last couple of years based on the aps-c format.

What I'd really like is a camera with the body and controls of the K-7 but the sensor of the K-x (and the K-x's excellent low-light, high ISO performance).

Other than that, I find it difficult to think of what I'd want in a camera. Oh, I can think of a couple of frills that would be nice, for example,
  1. GPS tagging
  2. Ability to write to 2 cards

But otherwise I'm happy with APS-Cand a cheaper price.

Will
05-03-2010, 12:51 PM - 2 Likes   #19
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My personal opinion (for what little it's worth) is that Pentax would not be making the right move by introducing a Pro grade body in 36x24. Almost their entire experience in building DSLRs has been in APS-C, and their high end lenses are almost exclusively aimed at the smaller format as even their management has mentioned publicly. You have to walk before you run, and jumping up to a 1Ds/D3 competitor would be complete folly, and even a 5D/D700 class competitor would be very questionable. If they chose to go against Sony at the low end of the 36x24 market, that would not be a Pro class camera, and they would hurt their credibility if they claimed it as such.

I think that Pentax has to prove to the general market that they can build a body that's truly performance competitive with the best of the APS-C bodies before they make the jump to a very expensive 36x24 model. In the K-7, they have an extremely good body -- AFAIC, it can compete with the 7D and D300s in the marketplace, but only when you include price, size, and ergonomics in the mix.

Sure, a 36x24 body from Pentax will gain some sales -- but the potential market would likely be mostly made up of the top level of current Pentax owners -- a small percentage of a very small percentage of total DSLR shooters. To make the Pro model viable, they'll need to draw lower level shooters from other brands, and I think the only way they can overcome brand loyalty and existing investment in other systems is to make a model that is not only relatively unique in size and usability, but also trumps the big two in the most obvious performance areas, IQ, AF performance, and frame rate -- I emphasized "trumps" because, as the 7D and D300s have shown, Nikon and Canon have the capability to bring out either a new model or an incrementally improved model to answer just about anything a competitor might throw out there within months of the introduction of such a model.

Pentax would also have to overcome their considerable disadvantage of the lack of a significant professional-level repair/lens rental/loaner support system to go against the big boys in Pro 36x24 class body. At the professional level, it's not just the body, it's the system, and "the system" goes well beyond just bodies and lenses. The flash system would also have to be improved, both in reliability and versatility to attract working pros, and they'd need to convince quite a few of these from other brands to sell enough units to make the investment in a 36x24 format pro-level body profitable -- Pentax is too small to either accomplish or risk this, IMO.

An alternative to the 7D and D300s, at least competitive with all their performance parameters and price, then add in-body stabilization, full legacy lens compatibility (with the added benefit of SR), Pentax IQ, smaller size and weight, great ergos, and the availability of those fine Pentax primes (again with SR), and I think they could have a winner. If they could prove to the market that they can truly compete at this level, and with good acceptance of the 645D, then this could set the stage for a "FF" model that would have the stuff to be considered as a viable alternative to the big boys.

Scott

05-03-2010, 01:11 PM   #20
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Excellent post, snostorm. Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

I ASSUME (wildly) that, if Pentax WERE to release a FF body, it would sell for a much lower price than the least expensive offerings from Canon, Nikon and Sony.

But I agree: It makes much more sense (at least to me, and apparently to you) for them to create another GREAT APS-C camera, also sold for a great price.

Will
05-03-2010, 01:37 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Excellent post, snostorm. Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

I ASSUME (wildly) that, if Pentax WERE to release a FF body, it would sell for a much lower price than the least expensive offerings from Canon, Nikon and Sony.

But I agree: It makes much more sense (at least to me, and apparently to you) for them to create another GREAT APS-C camera, also sold for a great price.

Will
+1 to this!
I don't see FF happening, not any time soon.
One of the main reasons, is that there is little available glass (that you could buy new) to fit on K mount FF. There are only 3FA ltds, 3 DFA macro lenses, and handfull of DA/DA* (40ltd, 70ltd, *55, *200, *300) that could be used on FF as FF lenses without crop mode. Nowhere near enough to consider it line up IMO.
Secondly with 645D out, I think that's going to be the competition for Canon and Nikon FFs.
Personally I think, the new "pro" body will be APSC, and I hope it'll be bigger than K-7 which is just too small... K10/20 was (still is, for me) excellent size of the body.
my 2p
05-03-2010, 01:49 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by axl Quote
+1 to this!
I don't see FF happening, not any time soon. One of the main reasons, is that there is little available glass (that you could buy new) to fit on K mount FF. There are only 3FA ltds, 3 DFA macro lenses, and handfull of DA/DA* (40ltd, 70ltd, *55, *200, *300) that could be used on FF as FF lenses without crop mode. Nowhere near enough to consider it line up IMO.
I suppose there are all those old lenses out there, too. But I agree with your assessment. A Pentax FF camera, released any time soon, would appeal almost exclusively to Pentax devotees with large collections of old lenses. While I'm sure there are many such folks, and perhaps even some who could afford to pay for a FF digital from Pentax, it just doesn't sound like a profitable market to me.

If I were a serious hobbyistwith the freedom to do exactly what I wantand if I were a devotee of Pentax, I would just stick with film cameras.


QuoteQuote:
Secondly with 645D out, I think that's going to be the competition for Canon and Nikon FFs. Personally I think, the new "pro" body will be APSC, and I hope it'll be bigger than K-7 which is just too small... K10/20 was (still is, for me) excellent size of the body.
I've never held a K-7 in my hands but I also agree with you on this point: The size of the K20D (especially with the grip) is just about perfect and I don't know that I would want anything smaller.

Will
05-03-2010, 01:57 PM   #23
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More and more people are selling out their lens and bodies and moving to another systems. Take *isteve - his shots were inspiration to me. Not that he`ll shoot worse now with his Nikon gear, but still.

Something about Pentax business plan really makes me shake my head in desperation. We know they had the technology, actually they presented the prototype FF body back in 2001. They also proved the fact they can use current technology in different format - lots of K7 stuff went into 645D.

Now here is the question: Why dont they just out-source FF sensor, stick it into any of existing bodies ( K10D like makes good sense, K7 would be a dream come true ) and sell it in small quantities at a price that would guarantee a minimal profit?

P.S. Please dont send me away to other systems, I really cant give up some of the glass I have.

05-03-2010, 02:20 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ilya80 Quote
More and more people are selling out their lens and bodies and moving to another systems. Take *isteve - his shots were inspiration to me. Not that he`ll shoot worse now with his Nikon gear, but still.

Something about Pentax business plan really makes me shake my head in desperation. We know they had the technology, actually they presented the prototype FF body back in 2001. They also proved the fact they can use current technology in different format - lots of K7 stuff went into 645D.

Now here is the question: Why dont they just out-source FF sensor, stick it into any of existing bodies ( K10D like makes good sense, K7 would be a dream come true ) and sell it in small quantities at a price that would guarantee a minimal profit?

P.S. Please dont send me away to other systems, I really cant give up some of the glass I have.
My thoughts (inspired by hope) is that the decision to go fully aps-c was made (obviously) by the old Pentax board. Now, Hoya has brought new spirit to the company showing that they intend to release very competitive and innovative products (K-7 / K-x). I sure hope they keep 'em coming

The lack of FF lens line and supposedly heavy investments (that needs to pay off) in the cropped DA line is one obstacle. 645D filling the larger format slot is another.
05-03-2010, 02:23 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by ilya80 Quote
More and more people are selling out their lens and bodies and moving to another systems.
+1
That's the real tragedy.
Pentax is loosing its fore runners for stupid reasons. One probably has to live in Japan to understand how the 645D could be more important than a full frame K-?.

I mean it's better than nothing and probably buys them another year but doesn't solve their problem.

Same happens in the Olympus camp. Some of my Olympus friends used the advent of FT to become split Olympus-MILC and Casonikon FF users. But Olympus has no other choice (other than joining Pentax). Pentax has.
05-03-2010, 02:37 PM   #26
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How could they make an APS-C camera that is significantly more 'pro' than the K-7? I'm not by any means in the FF camp, but I'd really interpret this as him promising an FF camera. Moreover, those calls from the Pentax community have always a been about an FF camera, never about a pro APS-C body above the K-7. And, I think a DSLR is only considered pro when it's FF. I know the D300s' and 7Ds of this world are capable of nearly as much as FF cameras, but when someone's talking about a pro camera, I think everyone assumes that to mean an FF camera.

Also, I like he hinted at making more quality products for a limited consumerbase. I think this is what Pentax has been doing lately in their P&S segment; interesting cameras rather than also-rans.

Last, funny he speaks about updating multiple bodies this year. Would that mean both K-x and K-7? Or would he still look at the K-m and K200D as current bodies?
05-03-2010, 02:40 PM   #27
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Would you rather pay $1500.00 for a nicely spec'd FF DSLR or $1500.00 for a comparable APS-C DSLR? I'd rather spend the money on a FF DSLR. The cost of the sensors is coming down. Isn't the new MF 645D based on the same electronics of the current APS-C K-7? I just don't buy the argument that it will take a lot of new programming or expensive design expertise. There will be some accommodations made to fit the larger FF sensor but I don't see much else. Wasn't the K-Mount originally designed for FF?

Being that the K-Mount in itself is a FF mount, Pentax had to switch to a smaller sensor (APS-C) when the the Philips sensor deal fell through in 2001 or so. APS-C sensors were just a compromise at the time for Pentax to bring out a DSLR. Now FF sensors are coming down in price and up in quality (read up on Sony's rumored new FF sensor coming in the new Nikon D700s {supposed to be as good as the APS-C sensor in the Pentax K-X}, and Samsungs new FF sensor that will be out in the next 12 months).

A new FF K Mount DSLR is bound to bring new D-FA lenses. If Pentax is not bringing out a FF DSLR why hasn't Pentax at least announced or unveiled any new DA lenses? Hoya has been way too quiet.

I never bought heavily into DA lenses because I remember what a flash in the pan the APS film format was in the 1990's (Kodak Advantix, Nikon Pronea, etc.) Almost all of my lenses are FF compatible because I was planning to upgrade to FF.

I don't see APS-C as professional grade regardless of all of the arguments on this forum. If sensor size makes no difference (which it does) why would Pentax bring out the 645D in the first place? A good FF sensor can easily outperform a comparable APS-C sensor.

In closing, Pentax is bound to keep supporting APC-C through less expensive models like the K-7 and the K-X. Plus, I bet Pentax would make any FF DSLR backwardly compatible with APS-C lenses in cropped mode like Nikon does.

I already own a Pentax K100D and Pentax K20D, I see no real reason to upgrade to another APS-C format camera. I'm not looking to buy another APS-C camera, my next camera will be FF.

Bring out a K-Mount FF DSLR camera Pentax. You have a customer here!
05-03-2010, 02:50 PM   #28
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I'll guess Hoya has a deep inventory of existing, never sold, 645 lenses

I'll guess Hoya has a deep inventory of existing, never sold, 645 lenses remaining in Japan

Offering 645D first via a crop format CCD sensor clears Hoya's existing, made in Japan 645 glass, & gives Pentax the funds to move medium format lens manufacture to Vietnam or simply pay Hoya back some coin for their purchase of Pentax and its 2008 inventories. Hoya-Pentax must know whom ever buys 645D CCD will then most likely buy the next improved upon 645D CMOS in 2011-12. One customer = two 645D purchases in 24 months

I think its great *iststeve recognized he needed better tools to persue his art. One should not let the choice of tool interfere with their photography.

Anyways, he's left a bread crumb trail, quite easy to follow him and his shopping&trading spree to D700 Full Frame Avenue in Nikon~Land

He's keeping ZERO Pentax.

So long - its been fun. [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
05-03-2010, 02:50 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
How could they make an APS-C camera that is significantly more 'pro' than the K-7?
Spot on. The K-7 is already a very capable camera, and performs exceedingly well in almost every category that Pentax chooses to compete in. Build quality and styling are second to none, it already has weather sealing... the only real place for them to improve significantly is in the sensor.

It wouldn't be a flunk if Pentax just released a K-7 with some of the K-x low-light performance magic and an extra card slot, but I don't think it would define an entirely new category above the K-7. If this is going to be more "pro" than the K-7 is, rather than just a successor, the only way I see to make that happen is FF.
05-03-2010, 03:02 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
It wouldn't be a flunk if Pentax just released a K-7 with some of the K-x low-light performance magic and an extra card slot, but I don't think it would define an entirely new category above the K-7. If this is going to be more "pro" than the K-7 is, rather than just a successor, the only way I see to make that happen is FF.
Exactly. What you described would be the successor of the K-7, but not a whole new category. Especially since it's Pentax we're talking about, not Canon or Nikon. Pentax have few productlines with vast differences between them. Canon and Nikon (or Sony, actually) might produce lots of cameras that are only slightly different, but not Pentax.
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