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05-03-2010, 03:25 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by axl Quote
I don't see FF happening, not any time soon.
Neither do I. And not just for the reasons already listed. There's also the bad economy to think of, with the inevitable sinking of the dollar under the weight of skyrocketing public debt in America and the possibility of a major oil crisis in the Middle East over Iran's nuclear ambitions. It's assumed by some that FF will have the same price trajectory as APS-C; that, in other words, it will eventually migrate to the sub-$1,000 market at which time Pentax would have to come on board (if they hadn't already) because APS-C would be dead. That's what may happen in the end (unfortunately), but it's probably going to take a lot longer than expected. As the value of the dollar sinks, the migration of FF cameras toward the low-end market will be stymied. Meanwhile, the price of lenses, particularly FF lenses (which are more expensive anyway) will continue going up. It won't make good business sense for Pentax to enter the FF market until the current economic crisis has passed and its customers can afford to buy the new lenses to go with their new FF camera.

05-03-2010, 03:25 PM   #32
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[Channeling Ogl here ]

FF sensor in K-7 size body
20 megapixels in full-frame mode
12-14 megapixels in APS-C crop mode
Improved AF
$1700
05-03-2010, 03:45 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
[Channeling Ogl here ]

FF sensor in K-7 size body
20 megapixels in full-frame mode
12-14 megapixels in APS-C crop mode
Improved AF
$1700
Sounds reasonable. I would say $1800 for the price though. $1700 is a weird price point. I don't know why but $1800 seems more natural.
05-03-2010, 04:03 PM - 2 Likes   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
How could they make an APS-C camera that is significantly more 'pro' than the K-7? I'm not by any means in the FF camp, but I'd really interpret this as him promising an FF camera. Moreover, those calls from the Pentax community have always a been about an FF camera, never about a pro APS-C body above the K-7.
You are one of the few actually analysing what has been said in the interview.

It is always so easy to just repeat one's personal opinion

As much as I would like to agree, let me strive for precision here: The terms "pro" and "call" have been used by the interviewer, not Mr. Onada.

Onada actually did use the word "pro". But only in context with 645D users.

Onada said "yes" to a question. In his own words, he only leaked that (a plurality of) successor models and (a plurality of) completely new models is due. It cannot be deduced (in a logical way) that by "new model" he meant "above K-7" or "pro".

So, we may speculate that he talked about FF. But it is speculation, really.

Also, the following comment make me stumble:
"In this regard we must choose if we want to bet on consumer products or by products of higher quality but for a more limited market. In short, we are launching new models to the market but most of all we are studying very carefully the directions for the brand in the future."

To me, sounds like the decision about FF (higher quality but for a more limited market) vs. non FF (consumer products) is pending, awaiting the reception of soon to be launched models in the decision process. Which would imply that all soon to be launched models are non FF.

Also, if "higher quality but for a more limited market" wasn't to mean SLR over P&S (what people here seem to assume is correct) then it should mean FF because he makes clear in the next answer that they "not to focus on striking benefits such as shutter speeds in the case of Canon and Nikon". What other options does this leave to Pentax to go for higher quality, other than FF?

Or in other words: Only if we all cry "Oh no" in desparation that again no FF this year, will we get it next year

This is as far as my analysis carries me.


Last edited by falconeye; 05-03-2010 at 04:10 PM.
05-03-2010, 04:26 PM   #35
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Factoring in "market speak" this statement means almost nothing. "Professional"? What is that? Professional has nothing to do with the technology. It might mean instead getting a proper support network. So is that what they are talking about? (Doubt it.)

Remember that Pentax also called the K-7 some sort of radical departure that captured the "soul" of real photography. What did we get? Video. And strap lugs.

People will grasp at any straw to imagine a full-frame camera.
05-03-2010, 04:28 PM   #36
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Falk is da man. +1
05-03-2010, 04:44 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
If Pentax is not bringing out a FF DSLR why hasn't Pentax at least announced or unveiled any new DA lenses? Hoya has been way too quiet.
Good arguments.

Detail to add: It may be that Pentax struggles to find a source for an FF sensor. We don't know. Sony would be great, of course. Samsung not so, esp. with their lack of committment. I'm not sure they're are still working on it, actually.

As for lenses (counted by optical formula), I decided to look it up:
2003: 1
APSC: DA16-45
35mm:

2004: 3
APSC: DA14, DA40, DA18-55
35mm: DFA50, DFA100

2005: 2
APSC: DA12-24, DA50-200
35mm:

2006: 3
APSC: DA21, DA70, DA10-17
35mm:

2007: 3
APSC: DA*16-50, DA*50-135, DA18-250
35mm:

2008: 5
APSC: DA35, DA*300, DA17-70, DA18-55II, DA55-300
35mm: DA*200, DA*55

2009: 1
APSC: DA15
35mm: DA*60-250

2010: 0
APSC:
35mm: DFA100WR
(I counted DA*200, DA*55 and DA*60-250 as being FF lenses by design (final confirmation is pending though).

So, we have
#
###oo
##
###
###
#####oo
#o
o

as a release histogram (and a road map withdrawn in 2008).

It does indeed look like Pentax halted its DA lens development in 2008 were it flushed out all remaining designs (with the DA15 a late runner in early 2009).

It may have switched in 2008 to new 35mm designs: DA*55 in 2008 and DA*60-250 in 2009. And DFA100WR in 2010 which isn't new but makes much more sense if we assume that Pentax is in idle mode while deciding which direction to follow.

IMHO, don't expect new APSC DA* lenses in the near future (DA non-*, non-Ltd. yes).

Last edited by falconeye; 05-03-2010 at 05:01 PM.
05-03-2010, 05:16 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
A new FF K Mount DSLR is bound to bring new D-FA lenses. If Pentax is not bringing out a FF DSLR why hasn't Pentax at least announced or unveiled any new DA lenses? Hoya has been way too quiet.
I think Pentax needs to produce a FF pro spec camera not so much for the better IQ afforded, which would be great of course, but also to be seen to be part of the FF crowd, sort of like the Mp race, ie they need to have a camera with high Mp so as to have an offering that shows that they can compete with the Canon, Nikon and Sony etc.

As for no FF lenses announced, I think this has to do with the fact that they will only announce this at the time of a FF camera launch. If they announce FF lenses now, then this lifts the lid on a FF camera model before they are ready and also means that they will be kept to a time frame with regards to providing lenses and a camera and we know Pentax aren't that good at living up to time frames!

I am also hoping for a FF camera, but one that is only as big as the K-7 or K20D at worst, as if I wanted a large FF camera, I would have already jumped ship to Nikon. Let us hope that Pentax stays with it's history of providing small cameras even in the FF arena. My maind desire for a FF camera is for that large bright VF, but I am also happy to have the extra IQ advantage and DOF control that a FF sensor affords us.

05-03-2010, 05:41 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
I think Pentax needs to produce a FF pro spec camera not so much for the better IQ afforded, which would be great of course, but also to be seen to be part of the FF crowd, sort of like the Mp race, ie they need to have a camera with high Mp so as to have an offering that shows that they can compete with the Canon, Nikon and Sony etc.
Instead of that, they have just left them at the starting gate with the 645D. No need for FF from Pentax -- they have enough gear to produce.
05-03-2010, 06:02 PM   #40
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I agree with what Falk and Lance have expounded upon.

Hoya/Pentax has been unbelievably quiet on the lens front. An early announcement of new D-FA lenses would have tipped the hand of Hoya/Pentax. I believe when the FF camera is finally shown (hopefully at Photokina) it will be shown with at least three or four awesome new D-FA lenses.

I still believe Samsung is in the race with a FF sensor. Whether Pentax still does business with Samsung remains to be seen. Samsung tries so hard (almost too hard) to outdo or match Sony on just about every facet of electronics. The last credible detailed Samsung announcement came early last year when a Samsung engineer leaked that the company had been testing different FF sensors around the company. Then everything went quiet. A month or two ago I read that Samsung was talking up its next generation of sensors (CMOS, extremely low energy consumption but high on performance).

Samsung mothballed the GX DSLR (K-Mount) line to focus on the NX line late last year. Samsung's camera division (once a small stand alone portion of the company) has recently been merged into the main electronic division of the company (big money maker) that has been extremely successful with flat panel displays and other electronics (future synergy?).

Whether Samsung brings out a FF GX DSLR remains to be seen. By licensing the K-Mount from Pentax, Samsung gains almost instant acceptance in the market (lens support from Pentax, Sigma, Zeiss, Tamron, Voigtlander, Phoenix, Samyang, Rokunar, Vivitar, etc. and any lenses Samsung (Schneider) may produce) compared to having to start from scratch with a new mount.

I'm not sure what Samsung has planned, this is all just speculation on my part.

Late 2010/early 2011 should definitely be very interesting in the camera field! Start saving!

Last edited by Angevinn; 05-03-2010 at 09:41 PM.
05-03-2010, 06:07 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Start saving!
I already am, at this stage saving for a D400, or whatever comes after the Nikon D300s. Purely and simply for their tracking focus ability. However if Pentax comes up with an equivalent, I'm in.
05-03-2010, 06:27 PM   #42
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I could be wrong, but while I do see full frame in the next year, I see no reason to expect faster auto focusing or tracking. As far as I can tell, Pentax has lagged behind in this area for a long time and I don't see any reason to expect a change. Real ring motors? Updated auto focus algorithims? I don't see why we would expect any of these things in a Pentax release, even if it was at a "pro level." The standard line seems to be "don't shoot Pentax if you shoot sports."
05-03-2010, 06:59 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
The professional camera above K-7 will be FF.
And here I just picked-up a D700!
But I think(in some strange way) that I'd be just as happy to hold on to my Pentax lenses.

Last edited by JohnBee; 05-03-2010 at 07:05 PM.
05-03-2010, 08:53 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I think its great *iststeve recognized he needed better tools to persue his art. One should not let the choice of tool interfere with their photography.

Anyways, he's left a bread crumb trail, quite easy to follow him and his shopping&trading spree to D700 Full Frame Avenue in Nikon~Land

He's keeping ZERO Pentax.
That's just misleading. Steve changed platforms not to persue (sic) his art, but to gain better professional support with worldwide coverage, better third party accessory (I'd guess mainly flash, since he is a flash guru) availability, and a the workflow advantage of being able to import settings from his editor to the camera. The very high ISO and AF performance of the D700 didin't hurt either. He even mentioned that it was ironic that he go for the D700 since he had always been an advocate of APS-C as a DSLR format. He has decided to go full time into photography as a profession, and this change is what motivated his move from Pentax -- I'd do the same in his position

All of his Pentax gear needed to be sold to finance the move to Nikon. I got the distinct impression that this wasn't necessarily his preference.

Scott
05-03-2010, 09:02 PM   #45
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What about adding quality tethering support to one of the next models? That would also be a substantial step in the right direction.
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