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05-03-2010, 09:33 PM   #46
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The problem with Pentax releasing a FF camera is that almost nobody will buy it. All those who are now clamoring for one will say what? $2,000 for a FF Pentax? you must be joking!!! I won't buy one until it's $1,250. Then Pentax will go bankrupt and that will be the end of that.

Be very careful what you wish for, people, because you just might get it.

If I were running Pentax, I'd say you guys want a FF Pentax? Alright, then put your money where your mouth is. Here's a PayPal button, press it, pay $2,000, and when we have X thousand payments (where X is the number of thousands of FF cameras needed to sell to break even) we'll start developing the FF Pentax. All those who paid upfront will get one straight off the assembly line in 12 months; the rest can wait to buy one at the store for $2,500.

...

05-03-2010, 10:01 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
The problem with Pentax releasing a FF camera is that almost nobody will buy it. All those who are now clamoring for one will say what? $2,000 for a FF Pentax? you must be joking!!! I won't buy one until it's $1,250. Then Pentax will go bankrupt and that will be the end of that.

Be very careful what you wish for, people, because you just might get it.

If I were running Pentax, I'd say you guys want a FF Pentax? Alright, then put your money where your mouth is. Here's a PayPal button, press it, pay $2,000, and when we have X thousand payments (where X is the number of thousands of FF cameras needed to sell to break even) we'll start developing the FF Pentax. All those who paid upfront will get one straight off the assembly line in 12 months; the rest can wait to buy one at the store for $2,500.

...
Well, everybody who purchased a *ist D in 2004 would have paid about the US$2,000 mark as, I did, and this was for a 6Mp APS C with virtually no dedicated lenses and an abreviated FA lens list! And all this back in 2004 - $2,000 today is not what it was in 2004. So, I'm sure there are quite a few who would purchase a FF Pentax at $2,000.

A FF Pentax camera needs to be priced at about the high end APS C sensored cameras like the D300 and 7D so as to entice a few Nikon and Canon potential users to Pentax and $1,600 to $2,000 would be about right. You can definitely put me down for one right now.

Last edited by Lance B; 05-03-2010 at 10:47 PM.
05-03-2010, 10:13 PM   #48
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Time to get serious

Hi all - time to get serious in the rumour soup.
1. Some people here and in some other forums know exactly what Hoya/Pentax is up to.
2. These persons really WANT to tell, but are afraid of beeing sued/cut of in the future.
3. These persons unintentionally/stupidly anyhow from time to time leak some useful information.
4. As an intelligence expert i have tried to sum up what "they" have leaked so far:
Camera 1.
ETA: This fall
Name: K-5
Type: Digital APS
Sensor: Who really cares - it will be at least as good as K-x or K-7 and i double dare you to prove to me that sony is superior to samsung or vice versa in such a way that your photography suffers noticably. (And also, i double dare you to prove to me that K-x raw high iso noise is better (less noticable) than K-7 raw high iso noice...)
Specifications: Just about as a K-x with weatherprofing and a few minor improvements.
Other: Not a very hard cameramodel to predict...
Camera 2.
ETA: This fall
Name: ? (Dont know, but its K-7 "improved")
Type: Digital APS
Sensor: Better than K-5
Specifications: As K-7, but with significantly improved AF, partly because of redesigned SAFOX system (New lens array in front of AF-module). Most certainly improved hig iso noise, either by the new sensor or by improved software. (I hope for the first.)
Other: Perhaps better buffer, perhaps tethering, perhaps (but most unlikely dual memoryslots.
Camera 3.
ETA: Either this fall - and then we probably wont see K-7 "improved" - or next year, probably summer/fall.
Name: Dont know, but something flashy, it`s after all Pentax first Digital full frame.
Sensor: approximately 24x36mm HeHeHe....
Specifications: A K-7 "improved" but with "full frame" sensor. Good build quality, but at the same time built to be as cheap as possible. (Cheaper than any other cameramarks full frame digital slr.)
My 1Sek regarding the comments int the interwiev:
1. As some others have pointed out - how can a aps digital slr be much more professional than the K-7?
2. Hoya is the best thing that has happened to Pentax since Supper-A; a major economical player with an agressive buisness plan.
My thoughts about pentax ability to produce full frame lenses for a full frame digital camera:
1. Hoya/Pentax does not have to produce any lenses - there are several million lenses about right know - the customers are already equipped with the lenses, all Hoya/Pentax have to do is to provide a cheap/good enough camera and the buyers will come.
Those who doubt the above - why do you thing the 645d was released? - because Hoya had a lot of old lenses to sell Moahahahahaha...sorry...
Of course because the buyers already exist, owning old 645/67 lenses...
2. Pentax is an OPTICAL company, rememeber, not a camera making company as C/N/S/O. The difficulty for Hoya/Pentax to make a new lens design for a full frame digital camera is about as big as the difficulty for a cow to produce new milk to a new customer. (Yeah, i know that Hoya/Pentax has limited production capacity, but IF you are determined to be a major player (as Hoya) increased production capacity i easy (Yes easy) to expand - with good quality.
Best regards/Ryhfeed - going back to lurking in the shadows again...(Saving for the coming Pentax full frame...hopefully this fall...)
05-03-2010, 10:15 PM   #49
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Correct me if I am wrong (I have not shot Pentax since my 67), but I though all the new DA* lenses were for APS-H or smaller sensors? If Pentax were planning a larger sensor why would they make it a FF and not an APS-H?

Some of the existing DA* lenses already show a fair amount of light fall off in the corners, so even on an APS-H I think they would have trouble.

I would love to see Pentax produce an improved K-7 or even am APS-H body, I'm just not sure it really matters if it is a FF or not. APS-H is not exactly hurting Canon 1D4 sales. Nobody but Canon is currently making APS-H sensors and I doubt they are going to make them for Pentax. I'm not sure Pentax can sell enough of them to justify the cost of having them made just for them. They are better off buying standard sized sensors from Sony.

Fuji is a sensor manufacturer who I always thought would be a good fit for Pentax.

05-03-2010, 10:18 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
The problem with Pentax releasing a FF camera is that almost nobody will buy it. All those who are now clamoring for one will say what? $2,000 for a FF Pentax? you must be joking!!! I won't buy one until it's $1,250. Then Pentax will go bankrupt and that will be the end of that.

Be very careful what you wish for, people, because you just might get it.

If I were running Pentax, I'd say you guys want a FF Pentax? Alright, then put your money where your mouth is. Here's a PayPal button, press it, pay $2,000, and when we have X thousand payments (where X is the number of thousands of FF cameras needed to sell to break even) we'll start developing the FF Pentax. All those who paid upfront will get one straight off the assembly line in 12 months; the rest can wait to buy one at the store for $2,500.

...
I agree 1000%. I've mentioned Pentaxian "frugality" in a number of posts -- You hit it directly on the head sans PC.

Whenever Nikon or Canon announce a new model, excitement on the fora runs high and the pre-orders start to pile up at full price. When Pentax announces a new model, they get are a handful of pre-orders, but what increases dramatically are the posts on various Pentax fora speculating how long it will take for the price to drop from "easily best in class" to "ridiculously cheap for the class" -- along with the rationalizations to keep present bodies. I'll admit to waiting a week or two until a viable dealer offers a couple of bucks off and free shipping, but I'd rather have the benefit of shooting the new body. . . For every dollar I've "wasted" being an early adopter, I've probably saved $20 in premium glass.

Nothing wrong with frugality -- I'm sure that Hoya and Pentax probably disagree though. . .

Scott
05-03-2010, 10:19 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I could be wrong, but while I do see full frame in the next year, I see no reason to expect faster auto focusing or tracking. As far as I can tell, Pentax has lagged behind in this area for a long time and I don't see any reason to expect a change. Real ring motors? Updated auto focus algorithims? I don't see why we would expect any of these things in a Pentax release, even if it was at a "pro level." The standard line seems to be "don't shoot Pentax if you shoot sports."
I agree, which is why I'm saving for, probably, a Nikon. I fell into sports photography after falling into Pentax. I'd like to stay with them though, but just don't see it.
05-03-2010, 10:26 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Correct me if I am wrong (I have not shot Pentax since my 67), but I though all the new DA* lenses were for APS-H or smaller sensors? If Pentax were planning a larger sensor why would they make it a FF and not an APS-H?

Some of the existing DA* lenses already show a fair amount of light fall off in the corners, so even on an APS-H I think they would have trouble.

I would love to see Pentax produce an improved K-7 or even am APS-H body, I'm just not sure it really matters if it is a FF or not. APS-H is not exactly hurting Canon 1D4 sales. Nobody but Canon is currently making APS-H sensors and I doubt they are going to make them for Pentax. I'm not sure Pentax can sell enough of them to justify the cost of having them made just for them. They are better off buying standard sized sensors from Sony.

Fuji is a sensor manufacturer who I always thought would be a good fit for Pentax.
The DA lenses were designed for APS C and may be some could be used on APS H. APS C is here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future, IMO, so the APS C DA lenses will still be manufactured and are still relevant.

There are quite a few lenses that can be used on FF:
DF A macros
FA Limiteds and the FA50mm f1.4 (still being procuded, I think)
The DA*60-250 f4 I do believe
The DA*200 f2.8
DA*300 f4 I do believe.

So, a FF Pentax can utilise all of these lenses short term until a FF lens line-up is introduced. All we really need at the time of release of a FF camera are the following lenses:
20mm f2.8 - critical
24mm f2.8 - maybe
DFA*24-75 f2.8 zoom - critical
DFA*70-200 f2.8 zoom - critical
DFA*400 or 500 f4 - later

Existing FA lens formulas could probably/possibly be used for many of these lenses - the FA20 2.8 for the DFA20 2.8, the FA24 f2 for the DFA24 f2, the FA*80-200 f2.8 for the DFA*70-200 f2.8 etc.

I am not against an APS H camera, I would gladly accept it over another high end APS C, but there is no reason to not have a FF camera once FF sensor prices have reduced sufficiently so as to compete with the high end APS C cameras from Canon, Nikon and Sony.

Last edited by Lance B; 05-03-2010 at 10:31 PM.
05-03-2010, 10:30 PM   #53
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My thinking on a FF Pentax has actually evolved over the past year, thanks to a lot of discussions here on the forum. Some things to consider:

1. Pentax have figured out how to leverage their development of the K-7's electronics into another camera with a different sensor (645D). What's to stop them from continuing this one-electronics package/multiple sensors and bodies again? This permits them to amortize development costs across multiple bodies while filling gaps in their product line.

2. Pentax has been punching above their weight class lately, with cameras that compare favorably with Canikon alternatives one pricepoint higher (i.e., K-x vs D90/T1i, K-7 vs D300/7D, 645D vs other MF). If they released a camera in the $1700 range that followed this formula, what features/specs would that model have?

3. Pentax has a well-regarded lineup of APS-C glass and a well-regarded legacy of FF glass. While they don't profit from the sale of used lenses, it does buy them some time with current Pentax owners that have older FF lenses in the same way that they don't have to launch the 645D with a fully fresh lens lineup.

All of this leads me to believe that if Pentax is considering releasing a camera above the K-7's original retail price, they are probably considering the cost/benefit of FF if in fact a FF camera can be built for that pricepoint.

It would be corporate suicide to challenge Canikon head to head in the FF market. But one pricepoint lower + reduced development costs + legacy glass support just might make it work...

05-03-2010, 10:44 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
My thinking on a FF Pentax has actually evolved over the past year, thanks to a lot of discussions here on the forum. Some things to consider:

1. Pentax have figured out how to leverage their development of the K-7's electronics into another camera with a different sensor (645D). What's to stop them from continuing this one-electronics package/multiple sensors and bodies again? This permits them to amortize development costs across multiple bodies while filling gaps in their product line.

2. Pentax has been punching above their weight class lately, with cameras that compare favorably with Canikon alternatives one pricepoint higher (i.e., K-x vs D90/T1i, K-7 vs D300/7D, 645D vs other MF). If they released a camera in the $1700 range that followed this formula, what features/specs would that model have?

3. Pentax has a well-regarded lineup of APS-C glass and a well-regarded legacy of FF glass. While they don't profit from the sale of used lenses, it does buy them some time with current Pentax owners that have older FF lenses in the same way that they don't have to launch the 645D with a fully fresh lens lineup.

All of this leads me to believe that if Pentax is considering releasing a camera above the K-7's original retail price, they are probably considering the cost/benefit of FF if in fact a FF camera can be built for that pricepoint.

It would be corporate suicide to challenge Canikon head to head in the FF market. But one pricepoint lower + reduced development costs + legacy glass support just might make it work...
Yep. Exactly what I have been saying. Can't go head to head with CaNikon with FF, so Pentax must have some adavantages in theor FF offering, which should be:

* Small size. Why have a camera the same size when you can get a Canon or Nikon or Sony? If I wanted a large FF camera I would have already switched to Nikon.

* Price. They need to have a camera that competes with the high end APS C offerings from the big two/three in order to sway potential high end APS C buyers from CaNikon.

You will not entice CaNikon users to purchase a Pentax FF camera unless you can have at least one of the above attributes.
05-03-2010, 10:50 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
How could they make an APS-C camera that is significantly more 'pro' than the K-7? I'm not by any means in the FF camp, but I'd really interpret this as him promising an FF camera. Moreover, those calls from the Pentax community have always a been about an FF camera, never about a pro APS-C body above the K-7. And, I think a DSLR is only considered pro when it's FF. I know the D300s' and 7Ds of this world are capable of nearly as much as FF cameras, but when someone's talking about a pro camera, I think everyone assumes that to mean an FF camera.

Also, I like he hinted at making more quality products for a limited consumerbase. I think this is what Pentax has been doing lately in their P&S segment; interesting cameras rather than also-rans.

Last, funny he speaks about updating multiple bodies this year. Would that mean both K-x and K-7? Or would he still look at the K-m and K200D as current bodies?
Why should Pentax betrayal their limited lens line? It is unique in the DSRL world and of supreme quality. I would be happy with a K7 markII, just some pro level improvements and an acceptable price.
I think that a good APS-C sensor, an even good processor, a K7s quality body and good lenses can stand the FF tsunami.
05-03-2010, 11:09 PM   #56
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Others may feel differently, but I feel that the 645D is even more proof of an upcoming FF Pentax. Otherwise the gap between the K-7 (or its successor) and the 645D is too large. We can jump high and low, but there's definitely room for a FF model in between the K-7 and the 645D. I can even see them use the same scenario as with the 645D: sell in Japan first and in Europe later.

Let's face it: Hoya is not stupid. They have declared IQ their prime concern and I'm sure they are also worried by the large exodus of well-known Pentax users getting professional and moving to other brands because Pentax does not offer what they need. In the long term this will damage the value of the Pentax brand, and I'm sure Hoya won't let this happen. Even if a FF model sells at a loss it will boost the value of the brand enormously. It will even cause many former Pentax users to come back. Once a Pentaxian, always a Pentaxian. I don't think other brands have the same value as Pentax has -- Nikon and Canon are always considered as tools, nothing more. But many photographers have a sweet spot for Pentax. Maybe they started with a humble K1000 or even Spotmatic. Even now there are many N/C owners having a Pentax as a small second system ("because it's a great travel system with the Limited primes"). So why not try to let them ditch their C/N systems altogether? There's definitely some money to be made.

Again: Hoya is not stupid. In fact it's a shame that Pentax still does not have a FF camera. Does Hoya always want to be the ugly duckling? Do the Japanese like to lose their face? No, I'm sure they don't.

The Photokina will prove it all
05-03-2010, 11:21 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Others may feel differently, but I feel that the 645D is even more proof of an upcoming FF Pentax. Otherwise the gap between the K-7 (or its successor) and the 645D is too large. We can jump high and low, but there's definitely room for a FF model in between the K-7 and the 645D. I can even see them use the same scenario as with the 645D: sell in Japan first and in Europe later.

Let's face it: Hoya is not stupid. They have declared IQ their prime concern and I'm sure they are also worried by the large exodus of well-known Pentax users getting professional and moving to other brands because Pentax does not offer what they need. In the long term this will damage the value of the Pentax brand, and I'm sure Hoya won't let this happen. Even if a FF model sells at a loss it will boost the value of the brand enormously. It will even cause many former Pentax users to come back. Once a Pentaxian, always a Pentaxian. I don't think other brands have the same value as Pentax has -- Nikon and Canon are always considered as tools, nothing more. But many photographers have a sweet spot for Pentax. Maybe they started with a humble K1000 or even Spotmatic. Even now there are many N/C owners having a Pentax as a small second system ("because it's a great travel system with the Limited primes"). So why not try to let them ditch their C/N systems altogether? There's definitely some money to be made.

Again: Hoya is not stupid. In fact it's a shame that Pentax still does not have a FF camera. Does Hoya always want to be the ugly duckling? Do the Japanese like to lose their face? No, I'm sure they don't.

The Photokina will prove it all
I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Good post.
05-03-2010, 11:24 PM   #58
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The Sirens' Call

I'm glad Scott posted a rebuttal, I was unaware that Steve left.

Nikon is offering a lot of rebates at the moment, it makes me wonder how much stock they are sitting on. The replacement for the D700 is completed but Nikon keeps delaying the release of the new D700s.

Getting back to Nikon, I was a longtime Nikon user until I went digital, then I became a big fan of Pentax. Arguably the best lenses ever made by Nikon were the Nikkor AI and AI-S lenses (manual focus) of the late 1970's and early 1980's. While Nikon claims that their current DSLR's accept any lens Nikon has ever made from the last 50 years, this is simply untrue.

Nikon's current DSLR's will accept some older lenses; this does not include pre-AI lenses that were made from the 1950's through the mid 1970's. If you try mounting a pre-AI lens on a current Nikon DSLR (except the motorless Nikon D40) you will seriously damage the camera.

Another point with Nikon, the older Nikon AI & AI-S lenses which are exceptional in build and image quality are crippled by current Nikon DSLR's. The AI & AI-S lenses will mount, but lacking a lens CPU you will have to set the camera in full manual mode: set the camera to display a histogram, read the levels, then set the shutter speed and aperture accordingly. What a pain and time consuming! Nikon does not allow the AV function to work with non-CPU legacy lenses.

A great feature (albeit a double-edged sword for Pentax, the support of legacy glass) with Pentax DSLR's is that we have a great AV mode that lets the camera adjust the shutter automatically in regard to the light hitting the sensor with any lens. Another cool feature with Pentax is the registry distance. I have a collection of Nikon pre-AI, AI & AI-S lenses that work great on my Pentax cameras. With the AI & AI-S lenses I did have to use a Dremel on them (which killed their resale value) but I don't plan on selling them. I can use not only Nikon lenses on my Pentax DSLR's but also a host of M42 lenses and a ton of older Pentax lenses. This really isn't possible with Nikon. Nikon has one of the longest registry distances which cuts out a lot of lenses with shorter registry distances.

When I bought my Nikkor (Nikon) 50mm 1.4 AF-D lens in the early 1990's I paid a little over $200.00 for it brand new. The modern day replacement, the Nikon 50mm 1.4 G is close to $500.00. The 50mm G isn't that much improved in performance either. I've even read people preferring the older 50mm D lens to the newer G lens.

Nikon equipment is good quality but very expensive. Nikon does a lot of advertising (big expense). Do I really need to pay extra to have Ashton Kutcher for a spokesperson? I see no value in that.

Nikon's are nice, but Pentax is seriously a great camera company. I don't shoot professionally anymore, but the enjoyment, utility and value I receive from my Pentax lenses (M42 through Limiteds) and cameras (K100D & K20D) is impossible to beat.

I look forward to a FF camera and a Pro line from Pentax. We've waited this long, what's a few more months? The grass isn't always greener on the other side with other camera manufacturers.

Maybe the new Pentax Pro line will get me back into doing some commercial photography again!

QuoteOriginally posted by snostorm Quote
That's just misleading. Steve changed platforms not to persue (sic) his art, but to gain better professional support with worldwide coverage, better third party accessory (I'd guess mainly flash, since he is a flash guru) availability, and a the workflow advantage of being able to import settings from his editor to the camera. The very high ISO and AF performance of the D700 didin't hurt either. He even mentioned that it was ironic that he go for the D700 since he had always been an advocate of APS-C as a DSLR format. He has decided to go full time into photography as a profession, and this change is what motivated his move from Pentax -- I'd do the same in his position

All of his Pentax gear needed to be sold to finance the move to Nikon. I got the distinct impression that this wasn't necessarily his preference.

Scott
05-03-2010, 11:43 PM   #59
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Previous Post

My last post is a little long, but it boils down to Pentax has a lot going for it. Especially now that Hoya is at the wheel and Photokina is just down the road.

Don't be misled by other camera manufacturers or posts about switching. No camera system is 100% perfect; Pentax has a lot of advantages that other manufactures don't have.

05-03-2010, 11:58 PM   #60
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If the translation is right (from english I suppose -> spanish -> google translated back to english), there is many cameras to come?
QuoteQuote:
- This year there will be updates of existing cameras, and some completely new models.
Does this mean:

- K-X mk2
- K-5 (rumored and almost confirmed from dealer meetings)
- K-7 mk2
- K-"higher"
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