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05-07-2010, 07:14 PM   #46
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I've read a lot of pros and cons about EVIL cameras; and don't have the knowledge necessary to judge how rapidly or if this transformation is going to occur.

Ultimately, the manufacturers will have to convince the customers that they should buy EVIL cameras vice mirror box SLRS. Equipment prices and technology will all affect how compelling the case is for this transformative process. Not to mention the pixel peepers and their IQ tests of the new cameras.

What could be very humorous, is a situation where manufacturers mostly shifted to EVIL and the customers decide mostly to stick with mirror box. Can't happen you say, the manufacturer always gets to decide. Well, not really. Remember the electric car that GM decided to kill in favor of making gas guzzling behemoths that made more profit? Well the customers eventually decided to buy from other manufacturers and GM alamost went bankrupt - and they're now designing an electric car.

Like film cameras, the older mirror box cameras are likely to be around for some time in parallel with the newer EVIL cameras. Let the better camera win.

05-07-2010, 07:34 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I've read a lot of pros and cons about EVIL cameras; and don't have the knowledge necessary to judge how rapidly or if this transformation is going to occur.

Ultimately, the manufacturers will have to convince the customers that they should buy EVIL cameras vice mirror box SLRS. Equipment prices and technology will all affect how compelling the case is for this transformative process. Not to mention the pixel peepers and their IQ tests of the new cameras.

What could be very humorous, is a situation where manufacturers mostly shifted to EVIL and the customers decide mostly to stick with mirror box. Can't happen you say, the manufacturer always gets to decide. Well, not really. Remember the electric car that GM decided to kill in favor of making gas guzzling behemoths that made more profit? Well the customers eventually decided to buy from other manufacturers and GM almost went bankrupt - and they're now designing an electric car.

Like film cameras, the older mirror box cameras are likely to be around for some time in parallel with the newer EVIL cameras. Let the better camera win.
he he..... the "best" doesn't always win!!! (Beta vs VHS)

Which does bring up an interesting point about whether the customers or the manufacturers decide.

One of the problems with EVIL cameras seems to be price. Some places they are not too expensive (like here in Japan), but in other places, the price is ridiculous!!! Now it seems to me that the manufacturers WANT people to buy these, but they don't price them correctly. So in other words, if manufacturers decide to keep the prices high, the customer may not buy them.

I think that the holy grail of EVIL is no mirror box, no mechanical shutter. This would make the whole camera purely electronic. And it SHOULD mean cheaper. And a cheap price may sway a lot of customers!!
05-08-2010, 01:32 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
Use an Olympus E-P1 with the Olympus Zuiko 70-300mm f/4-5.6 with the Olympus 4/3 - micro 4/3 adapter, and it will AF and meter. Case proven.

I use lenses up to 300mm with the Panasonic G1. I can manually focus. I can zoom. Without tripod.
But is it comfortable, don't think so, except off corse if you have very strong hands.
05-08-2010, 01:35 AM   #49
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IMHO EVIL is more range finder class killer than DSLR.

05-08-2010, 02:09 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
Use an Olympus E-P1 with the Olympus Zuiko 70-300mm f/4-5.6 with the Olympus 4/3 - micro 4/3 adapter, and it will AF and meter. Case proven.

I use lenses up to 300mm with the Panasonic G1. I can manually focus. I can zoom. Without tripod.

QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
But is it comfortable, don't think so, except off corse if you have very strong hands.
I hold a DSLR or Micro 4/3 with right hand at the right side and left hand underneath, using my fingers to adjust the zoom. So it's just as comfortable. And you don't need strong fingers

But let's get back to it. You said:
QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
EVIL cam cannot handel lens bigger than 200mm
They can.
05-08-2010, 02:10 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
EVIL cam cannot handel lens bigger than 200mm, juts imagine how stupid that cam will look on giant tele lens, it's to small. Than battery life; big DSLR bodes have room for big battery, plus half of power is not going to electronic viewfinder and camera mustn't always on be on. How many times you first were looking in classical viewfinder and then turn on cam?
200mm on 1.6 crop = 320 mm.

320 mm on 2x crop = 160 mm.

DMC-GH1 already have 14-140, do you think 160 would be impossible to handle with it?

And if you do what about all 300, 400, 500 mm glass for DSLR? No purpose to make it?
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I've read a lot of pros and cons about EVIL cameras; and don't have the knowledge necessary to judge how rapidly or if this transformation is going to occur.

Ultimately, the manufacturers will have to convince the customers that they should buy EVIL cameras vice mirror box SLRS. Equipment prices and technology will all affect how compelling the case is for this transformative process. Not to mention the pixel peepers and their IQ tests of the new cameras.

What could be very humorous, is a situation where manufacturers mostly shifted to EVIL and the customers decide mostly to stick with mirror box. Can't happen you say, the manufacturer always gets to decide. Well, not really. Remember the electric car that GM decided to kill in favor of making gas guzzling behemoths that made more profit? Well the customers eventually decided to buy from other manufacturers and GM alamost went bankrupt - and they're now designing an electric car.

Like film cameras, the older mirror box cameras are likely to be around for some time in parallel with the newer EVIL cameras. Let the better camera win.
Well, for me who lacks a camera what is holding me back is

Major issue: Limited choice of glass.
Major issue: Longer DOF at same aperture.
Minor issue: 550D got higher FPS in video and probably less rolling shutter effect.
Current and future advantage of the Panasonics: Better auto-focus than the 550D and soon global shutter.

I assume i should take 3-4 years to get a decent range of class. DOF/relative aperture size when it came to dof was affected only by sensor size so with an APS-C or FF EVIL camera that wouldn't be an option. Regarding focus speed the EVILs have no reason to do worse with contrast-detect because they _NEED_ it so I doubt they will be worse for video.

I have no interest or need in a mirror or optical viewfinder.

However it don't seem like I will buy a micro four-thirds camera thanks to longer DOF and I want decent glass to be around.


So, just get an APS-C/FF EVIL out with a nice selection of lenses please ;D



Also if Canon and Nikon really want to catch up ("Hey! Panasonic and Olympus steal this market!") I guess they could just decide sensor size and use the same mount .. ;D
Instant ownage.
QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
One of the problems with EVIL cameras seems to be price. Some places they are not too expensive (like here in Japan), but in other places, the price is ridiculous!!! Now it seems to me that the manufacturers WANT people to buy these, but they don't price them correctly. So in other words, if manufacturers decide to keep the prices high, the customer may not buy them.

I think that the holy grail of EVIL is no mirror box, no mechanical shutter. This would make the whole camera purely electronic. And it SHOULD mean cheaper. And a cheap price may sway a lot of customers!!
I think prices are only high because currently you've got no options. As soon as Sony release theirs and it gets more crowded prices will fall.

Yeah, APS-C/FF, global shutter and fast focus please =P

But do I want to wait? Not that I need a camera now but I read so much into things.. nerd as I am ..
QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
IMHO EVIL is more range finder class killer than DSLR.
What would the advantage be of the current system except bought gear?
05-08-2010, 02:25 AM   #52
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Rumor: Leica EVIL camera for Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

“We will see a full frame Leica EVIL on Photokina 2010.
It will look like the Leicaflex 18X24 prototype.
Of course without mirror or the film lever and so on.
It will be a VERY small system camera, but there will be a big battery grip you can use, if you want.
The AF is very special, moving chip, the phase AF is ON the main sensor.
Only in black, 21 mp, 2fps, native ISO from 50 to 6400.
Full magnesium.
Price: body only 3200 EUR.
Will start with 3(!) pancakes, 2 primes, 2 zooms.”


Guess they could had made it easy for them. Old camera design, old lenses, full frame sensor = done.

+ additional connectors for future lenses of course
05-08-2010, 03:38 AM   #53
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Looks like the global release of the Sony EVILs is on tuesday. I don't want a Sony, stupid brand no-one cares about =P, but maybe I should get one anyway and focus on legacy glass which I may eventually be able to use on some other better brand camera? =P

Oh crap. Stupidest time ever to buy a camera

05-08-2010, 05:27 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by aliquis Quote
Rumor: Leica EVIL camera for Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

“We will see a full frame Leica EVIL on Photokina 2010.
It will look like the Leicaflex 18X24 prototype.
Of course without mirror or the film lever and so on.
It will be a VERY small system camera, but there will be a big battery grip you can use, if you want.
The AF is very special, moving chip, the phase AF is ON the main sensor.
Only in black, 21 mp, 2fps, native ISO from 50 to 6400.
Full magnesium.
Price: body only 3200 EUR.
Will start with 3(!) pancakes, 2 primes, 2 zooms.”


Guess they could had made it easy for them. Old camera design, old lenses, full frame sensor = done.

+ additional connectors for future lenses of course
I don't see any sense in such camera in rangefinder system. M8.2 and M9 are very compact and have no mirror too. Put non-expensive CMOS sensor in M9 body and you can get new camera with cheaper price.
05-10-2010, 05:21 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't see any sense in such camera in rangefinder system. M8.2 and M9 are very compact and have no mirror too. Put non-expensive CMOS sensor in M9 body and you can get new camera with cheaper price.
You're right, it makes no sense.

I'm almost certain the rumor is based on fake info.


Nevertheless, among all vendors, Leica is in the absolute best position for a stunning EVIL camera proposition. They already have the mount, the most stunning glass, and the FF body, all sized in good proportion. They only need the EVF and contrast AF firmware (they have it (X1) but it could be faster). Both can be bought. Of course, they would have to switch from CCD to CMOS too. But who cares?

Their customers don't need to bet. The glass would still work on all other fine M-series cameras.

I understand that M-series lenses aren't autofocus. But they could easily be relaunched with a focus screw and offer manual focussing with a "focus-scale" (an EVF indicator where a gauge displays direction and distance of perfect focus) for existing lenses out there. The rumor about a moveable sensor makes it very unplausible.
05-11-2010, 01:17 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The rumor about a moveable sensor makes it very unplausible.
The moving film-holder plus mirror plus pentaprism of the old Contax Ax was very awkward, but why moving a sensor (without any ties to mechanical and optical parts) forward to focus should be more complex that moving it laterally for SR?
05-11-2010, 02:17 AM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
The moving film-holder plus mirror plus pentaprism of the old Contax Ax was very awkward, but why moving a sensor (without any ties to mechanical and optical parts) forward to focus should be more complex that moving it laterally for SR?
1. You have too little adjustment space. A standard 50/1.4 lens needs 6mm, longer lenses and macros need 10x more.
2. Longer lenses and macros are excatly where an M-EVIL would appeal to Leica enthusiasts.
3. A moveable sensor disables any floating lens focus design. Leica has recently emphasized that floating lens focus is mandatory to achieve excellent sharpness at infinity and nearer distance. Their S2 lenses use it.
4. There already is a coupling between body view finder and focus helix.
05-12-2010, 02:54 AM   #58
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Regarding contrast-detect focus speeds:
NEX5 focus speed:
GF1 focus speed:
05-12-2010, 04:27 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by aliquis Quote
Regarding contrast-detect focus speeds:
NEX5 focus speed:
NEX5 measured to be 0.44s by Imaging resource.

GF1 0.41s and G2 0.42s (same source). So, all about equal.


Interestingly, they measure the K-7 and K-x to be 0.09s! (Their methodology implies measuring the focus time after manual focus to minimize the lens-dependent effect of lens travel time. Lens is the Sigma 70/2.8)

In LiveView, the K-x focusses in about 0.45s (phase detect with mirror slap) or 2.6 with contrast AF. So, NEX5 AF is about as fast as K-x phase detect out of LV.
05-12-2010, 04:34 AM   #60
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So, the Kx is about 6 times slower than the EVILs in contrast AF?
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