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05-09-2010, 06:33 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by goubejp Quote
If you have a look on the part 2 "annual results" you see that the R&D expense on one year from 1st April 2009 to 31 March 2010 raise from 4,820 to 5,201; apparently there are stron variations from one quarter to another.
I could easily see this as having significant capital expenditures at the start of a project. Once that expenditure is done the ongoing for the project may be quite a bit lower.

I don't see quarter to quarter variations as either a trend or a threat.

05-09-2010, 08:00 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by omega leader Quote
I could easily see this as having significant capital expenditures at the start of a project. Once that expenditure is done the ongoing for the project may be quite a bit lower.

I don't see quarter to quarter variations as either a trend or a threat.
Agreed; I just thought it was one of the more interesting things worth noting. One other thing is that we don't know how far ahead in the pipeline the R&D funding reaches--that large expenditure could be for cameras that haven't been released yet.
05-09-2010, 08:38 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
That's built on the assumption that every business (or at least most) operating in China has poor quality control. Aside from a doubtful understanding of quality on the part of many people who use the term, this sort of negative comment doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

If it were true, it would obviously mean that anything manufactured in China by every large European or Japanese company there has poor quality control, and that simply isn't true. The evidence is in stores all around us in Western societies. Even some high-end products designed and made in China by indigenous companies are well-respected in Western markets. None of this means that there isn't rubbish made in China, but frankly, there's rubbish made in every country, too.

I've been fortunate enough to work in China, if only briefly, but it was clear to me when I was there that, while some of their industries have very large strides to make, others are doing very well indeed, both in terms of profits and in terms of the standards of the products they make.

People in the US and elsewhere once held the same view of Japanese industries, too. Then along came Pearl Harbour.

Keep smiling...
Two points. 1. While there are some good items made in China. There is a LOT of crap that shouldn't even leave the factories. Some of the worst recalls in American history have been the result of either the lack of QC or intentional subversion whether it was toxic dog food or lead paint in childrens toys or dangerous toys etc.

2. The attack on Pearl Harbor was BEFORE the Japanese became known as a manufacturer and importer.

However, this topic has gotten the thread of topic. As I already stated, I don't see Pentax going into China when they already have plants in The Philippines and Vietnam that are closer to Tokyo.
05-09-2010, 08:42 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by omega leader Quote
I could easily see this as having significant capital expenditures at the start of a project. Once that expenditure is done the ongoing for the project may be quite a bit lower.

I don't see quarter to quarter variations as either a trend or a threat.
You are exactly correct with this. The expense of new tech as well as new items is in the designing and start up of of the item. That's why some gear that are around along time are some of the best money makers like the A 50mm f1.2 that recently went back into production or the venerable FA 50mm f1.4.

05-09-2010, 10:44 AM   #20
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What I do remember from another of those economical documents that was posted here is that Pentax camera division was the only Hoya department that didn't had to cut down in R&D when we went into this economical recession (is that correct English? downhill economy). If anything that hinted me that Hoya had trust and interrest in the camera section, not only the medical branch. Pentax was allowed to finnish the most expensive parts of some R&D... OK, they finnished (more or less) the DA line, introduced the WR lenses, introduced K-m, K-7, K-x and the D645 in rather short time (and some P&S's also, don't keep track of them). But probably the development of a good part of the next couple of bodies and lenses are already done.
05-09-2010, 12:59 PM   #21
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Pentax introduced three very significant cameras in the past 12 months, including the 645D. This does not sound like a company that is skimping on R&D. I expect the K-8 to be a large step above the K-7, with a better sensor and AF. Not so sure about a possible FF camera, as this could drain resources into an area where they may not be able to compete with the big boys.

Rob
05-09-2010, 01:48 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Two points. 1. While there are some good items made in China. There is a LOT of crap that shouldn't even leave the factories. Some of the worst recalls in American history have been the result of either the lack of QC or intentional subversion whether it was toxic dog food or lead paint in childrens toys or dangerous toys etc.
I'd imagine if one was to compare the total number of recalled products to the the total amount of Chinese merchandise sold in the US, the recalled stuff wouldn't make up anywhere close to even a tenth of one percent.

One should also bear in mind that recalled products are often made to an American (or other first world nation) company's design specification, and that no country is immune to bad product design or dubious material / ingredient choices. The recent McLaren stroller recall (Maclaren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the 1980s Austrian wine recall (1985 diethylene glycol wine scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) both spring to mind.

QuoteQuote:
2. The attack on Pearl Harbor was BEFORE the Japanese became known as a manufacturer and importer.
Re-read his post -- he didn't suggest otherwise.
05-09-2010, 01:48 PM   #23
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All I'm saying is that Labor is almost freee in China and alot of company's are moving assembly to China. Look at Wally World almost everything they sell is China Crap.
The US is just screwed because of Unions. They are one of the reasons our economy is so screwed up.
Asiaian company's don't have the problem or the goverment watching over them either.

05-09-2010, 02:02 PM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fl_Gulfer Quote
All I'm saying is that Labor is almost freee in China and alot of company's are moving assembly to China. Look at Wally World almost everything they sell is China Crap.
The US is just screwed because of Unions. They are one of the reasons our economy is so screwed up.
Asiaian company's don't have the problem or the goverment watching over them either.
Labour in China is certainly very cheap. But not everything that leaves Chinese factories is crap. Yes, there are loads of poor quality products and defective things, too - but there is also a considerable output of high quality products, either under own brands or manufactured for US or European companies under their labels.

You notion, that Asian companies would not have "a problem with governments watching over them..." is quite funny, though, especially regarding China.

Ben
05-09-2010, 08:02 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by knoxploration Quote
I'd imagine if one was to compare the total number of recalled products to the the total amount of Chinese merchandise sold in the US, the recalled stuff wouldn't make up anywhere close to even a tenth of one percent.

One should also bear in mind that recalled products are often made to an American (or other first world nation) company's design specification, and that no country is immune to bad product design or dubious material / ingredient choices. The recent McLaren stroller recall (Maclaren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the 1980s Austrian wine recall (1985 diethylene glycol wine scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) both spring to mind.



Re-read his post -- he didn't suggest otherwise.
I would "imagine" Wal-mart returns alone would blow out what you imagine. Also, I suggest you go re-read the guys post regarding Pearl H. He flat said people had the same opinion about Japanese goods prior to it when in fact U.S. imports were very low from Japan prior to WWII. He clearly said "before."

BTW, nice try cherry picking some examples for Wikipedia. Levi Dockers have gone to shit since they have been made in China. The cotton fabric is crap and there is a lot more variability in a given size than previously. I also suggest you go look at the difference in the socio-economic differences in the Chinese "blue collar" factory work force in comparison to that of the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s Japanese, Hong Kong and Taiwan counterparts.

However, if I buy a Swiss made watch and it loses time, its going back. If I get a bad DA lens (AIV) and its bad, its going back. Most of the tonnage of stuff coming into this country from China isn't worth the return freight.
05-09-2010, 08:36 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fl_Gulfer Quote
All I'm saying is that Labor is almost freee in China and alot of company's are moving assembly to China. Look at Wally World almost everything they sell is China Crap.
The US is just screwed because of Unions. They are one of the reasons our economy is so screwed up.
Asiaian company's don't have the problem or the goverment watching over them either.
Certainly what you claim has been true in the past and remains frequently true today, yet . . .

Under the radar some American companies are moving large, complex manufactured items and sub-assemblies back onshore, as well as certain high value / low volume products and customer service functions.
  1. In a new plant a new Union local contract is negotiated with younger workers at much lower expense.
  2. Some items requiring complex hand skills and high communication can receive a much lower unit failure rate, so per-unit bad sample allowance is reduced
  3. The supply chain has gotten very iffy since the financial crisis.
  4. Currency exchnage rates have tilted the money back in our favor
Caterpillar just brought a major transmission assembly plant online and moved production of the item back to the US

AT&T Internet Services moved customer service and tech support back to San Francisco from Asia and India

Oracle moved some software engineering back to CA from India because the communication chain was too challenging.

Vietnam and the Phillipines are Hoya's outsource because they combine high attention to detail, low labor cost and proximity to Japan. QC is a matter of corporate commitment to train and a cultural willingness to perform.

Remember it took 30 years to get in this mess, but the worm has turned. In thirty years we will be the manufacturing location of choice globally for large, complex hand-assembled goods. Asia will outstrip us in machine-assembled, low skill items
05-10-2010, 01:52 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Vietnam and the Phillipines are Hoya's outsource because they combine high attention to detail, low labor cost and proximity to Japan. QC is a matter of corporate commitment to train and a cultural willingness to perform.

Remember it took 30 years to get in this mess, but the worm has turned. In thirty years we will be the manufacturing location of choice globally for large, complex hand-assembled goods. Asia will outstrip us in machine-assembled, low skill items
Agreed.
Currently, all my Pentax gears are either Made in Vietnam or Philipines.
05-10-2010, 06:33 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote

However, if I buy a Swiss made watch and it loses time, its going back. If I get a bad DA lens (AIV) and its bad, its going back. Most of the tonnage of stuff coming into this country from China isn't worth the return freight.
Think about what you just said.
05-10-2010, 06:51 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhaji Quote
Think about what you just said.
Hm . . . . .


If you are insinuating that the comment made by Blue had a racial tone to it, then I think that is not the case.

If that was not what you meant, then sorry.
05-10-2010, 12:04 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhaji Quote
Think about what you just said.
What the hell are you talking about?

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Hm . . . . .


If you are insinuating that the comment made by Blue had a racial tone to it, then I think that is not the case.

If that was not what you meant, then sorry.
There certainly wasn't any intended or implied on my part. I was referring to Swiss watches and DA ltd lenses and DA* lenses.


Edit: If this thing didn't keep good time, I would send it back. I wasn't referring to losing 4 sec a day but minutes a day.

http://www.swissarmy.com/Timepieces/Pages/Product.aspx?category=limitededitions&product=241086&

Last edited by Blue; 05-10-2010 at 12:21 PM.
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