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05-22-2010, 07:28 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
That's true, SR could be matched to a FF sensor as

There never was a FA 50/1.2 - only the old manual focus A-model.



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Not old. Still in production.

05-22-2010, 08:00 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Not old. Still in production.
And more exactly production restarted 1 or 2 years ago. The same more recently with the FF compatible module F-AF TC1.7X (which provides also AF to manual focus lenses).
And for long telephoto primes, they are already producing them FF compatible. If they want to develop new longer ones, they can just continue as it already is.
In my listing I also forget to add the DA lens compatible FF: the very recent 60-250mm F4! Which is actually there last new design... not a sign for you? And nothing new since almost 2 years, while they designed 16 lenses in 6 years... (cf Falconeye post on the "Interview of..." thread) I am not sure that these guys are paid to do nothing...
PS: to be honest, they are not doing nothing since they are designing a new wide lens (28mm I think to remember) for the 645 system. Probably presented at Photokina. About the 55 released with the new digital MF, I don't know if it is a real new design or just a refreshed version (SDM) of a design elaborated during the 5/10/35 years (strike out inapplicable ) of 645D development.
05-22-2010, 09:03 AM   #198
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I don't see Hoya letting Pentax release anything like the DigiBino. Again, the old Pentax is dead, Pentax became a dvision of Hoya in 2008 and has to answer to Hoya.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
This sentence alone approximately summarizes this discussion.

We simply do not know what Pentax is going to do and we never knew in the past, as Pentax was always secretive and sometimes came up with products nobody had thought about - and unfortunately nobody needed (remember the DigiBino...)

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05-22-2010, 09:22 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Sure the 645D is not only a camera, it is a marketing campaign for Pentax. A great PR investment for Pentax to be seen as a maker of professional and innovative digital camera products.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Now, in the entry level field - K-x is a grand success, in Japan and in other countries too. It sells better in Japan than the entry level Sony DSLR's, and the 100 colour options has been a success and also something that has attracted attention from journalists.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Investing in a 24x36 system cost money. Sure Pentax can do the body, but the lenses aren't there.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax needs a decent lineup of

D FA Star 28-80 f/2.8 AL SDM OSR
D FA Star 80-200 f/2.8 ED (IF) SDM OSR
D FA Star 400 f/5.6 ED (IF) SDM OSR
D FA Star 20-35 f/2.8 AL ED (IF) SDM
D FA Star 24 f/2 SDM
D FA 50 f/1.4 SDM
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
(OSR = Optical Shake Reduction, to overcome the problem with Pentax SR sensor mechanism to be too large fitting in a 24x36 body and matching image circle of 24x36).

Why so many star lenses? Pentax' standard lenses are very good. Sony already has a FF Shake Reduction System. The Patent application that Youky63 posted a week or two ago from Pentax is a FF Shake Reduction system.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
*at launch* of the new body.
Not "announced, will launch later within next 2 years".
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
A body without lenses will not sell.
How many lenses did Pentax launch their first DSLR the *ist with? I believe it was three DA lenses. The rest followed. There have been no new DA lenses in a while. The lens plant does not sit idle daily. I'm sure that lenses are being produced. Just not unveiled yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Sure Pentax has the D FA 100 and 50 Macro, the FA 31, 43 and 77 Limiteds, and the FA 50 f/1.4. This is not enough for a 24x36 digital body...
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
I say that the above 6 lenses is a must, for a 24x36 digital to be successful. Then they can continue to add lenses later - like a D FA 80-400 SDM OSR version of the Tokina design, a D FA 135 - 350 f/4-5.6 ED SDM OSR, D FA 24-90 f/3.5-4.5 AL ED SDM (low cost kit zoom), D FA 20-35 f/3.5-5.6, D FA 28 f/2.8 and D FA Star 85 f/1.4 ED SDM OSR.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Now, they can't do all these lenses alone.
They still have the APS-C system to support.
There have been no new DA lenses since 2009, Pentax still supports DA by manufacturing cameras like the K-X and K-7.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax has too small R&D and not enough production facilities to have an extensive setup of APS-C lenses. There is no room for 24x36 lenses here...
What is Pentax' R&D budget? Do you know?

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
So Pentax needs a partner - like Tokina. Tokina surely would be interrested in Tokina 28-80 f/2.8 AT-X Pro and 80-200 f/2.8 AT-X Pro plus a 400 prime and a 20-35 f/2.8 AT-X Pro for Canon and Nikon, with built in motor drive and optical shake reduction.
This makes no sense. Pentax (a fine lens manufacturer) now owned by Hoya (one of the world's largest optical glass manufacturers and extremely profitable) needing outside support?

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Then we will have Pentaxians complaing about "new Pentax lenses is the same as Tokina" but in my view this the only way of doing it! Pentax doesn't have R&D resources nor production facilities do develop and support an extensive 24x36 lens system. They have closed down the Japan lens factory and the lens assemblent plant in the Phillipines.
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
With help of Tokina to develop and produce those lenses, they can get to market faster than if Pentax needs to build a new factory that takes 1 - 2 years.
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
THis is hughe investements were talking about here...
Pentax needs more partners than Tokina.
They need a company that they can share lens mount with. I don't know who that would be. Samsung? Samsung is concentrating on the NX now, but yes Samsung would be a logical choice if they was interrested in 24x36 and the K-mount.
Kodak?
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
As things are today, Pentax can't do it.
It doesn't matter how much they need and must, they simple can't because they don't have the resources and manufacturing facilities to do it. They need help here, from a partner.
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Which is also what Hoya has hinted at before - that they are seeking a partner because it is too expensive and too risky to do this alone.
Reread the original quote from Hoya, Pentax might need an ELECTRONICS partner. Cameras (DSLRs) are not simple mechanical devices anymore. DSLR's are very sophisticated electronic devices. An example is Samsung recent merger of their camera division into their main electronics (flat panel, blu ray, home electronics, etc.) division. Hoya/Pentax might need help in the future on the electronics front. Not optical.

05-22-2010, 04:59 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
I don't see Hoya letting Pentax release anything like the DigiBino. Again, the old Pentax is dead, Pentax became a dvision of Hoya in 2008 and has to answer to Hoya.

And that was the best,to change in a new era.
But,still we have to wait for 35mm body.
In September we will see exellent aps-c bodys,the next part of a new era

Best regards
05-22-2010, 06:43 PM   #201
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someone at the other forum posted in a thread that s/he is buying glass because a friend from pentax said ff and better af is in the works. he did not mention whether that would be this year or even this century, but buying glass suggests a belief in the imminence of the event. no idea about how good the source is.

the thread is the one polling pentaxians about staying/leaving.
05-22-2010, 10:16 PM   #202
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Pentax could offer FF camera without any new lenses. Declare 3 new lenses.
And offer a bit later two zooms - 28-70 and 80-200. and DA*400.
05-24-2010, 04:09 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Why so many star lenses? Pentax' standard lenses are very good.
Pentax does not have any "standard lens" for 24x36 in production, except the FA 50 f/1.4, and the D FA 50 and 100 Macro. This means that Pentax needs to make new lenses for 24x36. Why Star? Because those that is in the market for such an expensive camera as 24x36 digital cameras are, also want the best lenses for it. That is why it is so important to bring out new D FA Star lenses. Releasing a 24x36 digital at pro price with consumer oriented 24x36 lenses, is a clear mismatch.

QuoteQuote:
Sony already has a FF Shake Reduction System.
But the Sony mount is not the Pentax K-mount.
Different image circles, different diameter of the mount, different registration distance and so on.

QuoteQuote:
The Patent application that Youky63 posted a week or two ago from Pentax is a FF Shake Reduction system.
Implementing it means a big 24x36 body. Would the Pentax community accept a 24x36 body as big as the competition? I don't believe so. By moving SR system to the lens, Pentax can shrink the size of the 24x36 body.

And Pentax has had patents for optical SR systems since the 80's.
The Nikon and Canon solutions are based in parts on original Pentax patents.

QuoteQuote:
How many lenses did Pentax launch their first DSLR the *ist with? I believe it was three DA lenses.
The *ist D was released with the FA J 18-35, D FA 50 and D FA 100. The DA 16-45 f/4 then followed early.

But Pentax still had many 24x36 lenses in production at that time that could be used with the *ist D! So *ist D was a camera released with many lenses.

Not so today.
Most of Pentax 24x36 lenses are out of production.
Pentax currently only makes the FA 50 f/1.4 plus the FA Limiteds and the D FA 50 and 100.

The DA lenses are for APS-C, not 24x36.

So the situation is different today compared to when the *ist D was released. When *ist D was released, Pentax had many lenses in production that the *ist D could use. *ist D was a camera with lenses.

Releasing a 24x36 body today means extremely few lenses available for it from Pentax. That is why Pentax needs to make new D FA lenses covering wide angle to tele. It is like building up from zero.

Canon, Nikon and Sony has had an easier time for 24x36 digital because they never showed comitment to APS-C digital. Pentax has released more APS-C lenses than any other maker. Nikon, Canon and Sony has lots of 24x36 lenses as "leftovers" from the 24x36 film.

So a new 24x36 digital without lenses to compete with other digital 24x36 system with much much more lenses? Who will buy the Pentax?

QuoteQuote:
There have been no new DA lenses in a while. The lens plant does not sit idle daily.
The lens plants (they are two) are busy producing the current DA, DA Limiteds and D FA lenses, and the occasional FA lens. Pentax closed down it's Japanese lens production and moved everything to Vietnam. Of course the lens plants in Vietnam are producing lenses. It is not so that all Pentax lenses are out of stock and none is produced.

QuoteQuote:
There have been no new DA lenses since 2009, Pentax still supports DA by manufacturing cameras like the K-X and K-7.
So? Do you believe Pentax just made a batch of them and then the lens plants has done nothing since 2009? Let me tell you this, which may surprise you - most of the DA lenses are in constant production. This means Pentax makes thousands and thousands of them every month!

QuoteQuote:
This makes no sense. Pentax (a fine lens manufacturer) now owned by Hoya (one of the world's largest optical glass manufacturers and extremely profitable) needing outside support?
Yes, because Pentax has closed down factories and lens plants - they closed down the lens plant in Japan and the Phillipines. This means Pentax only has two lens factories and they have limited production capacity.

Hoya is a large company yes, but they don't make lenses. They make lens elements, the materials used in lenses, but they don't make the optics. Hoya has no factory for making lenses, other than the two Pentax factories or lens plants.

When you close down production facilities, you remove some resources.
Hoya has shrinked Pentax. Hoya had to do this to make Pentax profitable. So Pentax has a much smaller and tighter costume today than they used to have. That is why I am saying that Pentax has more limited resources than before.

Hoya has also fired much of the R&D personell. All this happened when they merged with Pentax. It is old news. Where have you been? Hoya has shrinked Pentax quite a lot, they had to shrink the costume to fit the income Pentax was making.
Much of Pentax profitability of today is because of Hoya's cost cutting and shrinking of the Pentax businesses. This means Pentax can be profitable on lower output than before.

Hoyas chief - Mr Suzuki - has said openly and officially that Hoya seeks a partner for Pentax because they don't think it is worthwile to go alone - and I agree with this.

Also note that Pentax said that they does not have the resources to support both a market introduction of 645D and 24x36 digital at the same time, they had to choose. And they choosed to go with the 645D.

Are you really believing Pentax has a grand R&D department when they can't even work on more than one camera at a time? Now with the 645D being released, they have more resources available to work on the new APS-C models. When those are released later this year, they may have resources to give to a 24x36 product for next year. But the question is, do they want to?

It takes time to make new lenses and to build up a new 24x36 system, especially since you have to go from scratch.

And please note, many of the DA lenses are paid by Tokina. That is why Pentax could make them! The DA 12-24 is an original Tokina design. The 100, 35 Macro, fisheye, 16-50 and 50-135 are Pentax designs sold to Tokina. So Pentax are already developing lenses with Tokina to keep costs down, because they have to do it. yes, Hoya the largest glass supplier in the world needs Tokina to help with Pentax lenses to keep R&D costs down. Without Tokina, there would not have been so many DA lenses released.
Simply becaused it costed them too much.

So Pentax needs Tokina for the 24x36 lenses too.

QuoteQuote:
Hoya/Pentax might need help in the future on the electronics front. Not optical.
If Hoya/Pentax doesn't need help with optics, why have they used help from Tokina then if it was not needed????

05-24-2010, 01:58 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
There is nothing to fear....
All the negative views on FF from APS-C people come across as sour grapes.
Your sour grapes comment does not make sense.... How can it be a case of sour grapes over vaporware or non-existing product?

As for nothing to fear - Pentax is a small division despite having a big pocket parent. But it cannot take a hit like the colossal failure of Sony's A900/850. Hoya would be under extreme pressure from share holders to get rid of Pentax if they have heavy loss from the camera division.

QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Agreed, except I think they can make plenty on a FF dSLR at this point. The sensor prices are coming down...
Not from the current FF market condition. Only 5D II and D700 are sold in any decent numbers - and they are in the 2% and 1% market share range. With the traditional 1/10th camera sales ratio, Pentax at best could expect 0.1 to 0.2% market share for its FF (and remember Sony did significant worse than this type of projection).

Unless they produce a very low cost model, and that means low profit margin; which contradicts the notion of producing a high profit margin premium flagship model in the first place. This would also cannibalize their higher end APS-C class model, which was not a big seller to start with.
05-24-2010, 02:12 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
The reality is, that the few remaining FF lenses have seen a severe price increase, nearly doubling that price over the last year. New FF lenses, especially those, that would make sense to complement a FF camera will not be bargains at all.

Absolutely. I bought the Pentax 40 and 70 because I couldn't afford the 43 and 77 that I would have preferred to have.

Will
05-24-2010, 07:23 PM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Your sour grapes comment does not make sense.... How can it be a case of sour grapes over vaporware or non-existing product?

As for nothing to fear - Pentax is a small division despite having a big pocket parent. But it cannot take a hit like the colossal failure of Sony's A900/850. Hoya would be under extreme pressure from share holders to get rid of Pentax if they have heavy loss from the camera division.



Not from the current FF market condition. Only 5D II and D700 are sold in any decent numbers - and they are in the 2% and 1% market share range. With the traditional 1/10th camera sales ratio, Pentax at best could expect 0.1 to 0.2% market share for its FF (and remember Sony did significant worse than this type of projection).

Unless they produce a very low cost model, and that means low profit margin; which contradicts the notion of producing a high profit margin premium flagship model in the first place. This would also cannibalize their higher end APS-C class model, which was not a big seller to start with.
The A900/850 market failure had to do with poor performance of the sensor, if it performed well it would have done better. Pretending that the A900/850 is indicative of the future success or lack thereof of something Pentax would make is nonsense.

The "current FF market condition" has nothing to do with the "future FF market condition." As prices continue to fall, the FF market will grow dramatically. The "shares" you talk about are as low as they are for ONE reason - price. As the price falls, the market share will climb, and your "predictions" about what Pentax could "expect" will look foolish.
05-24-2010, 11:48 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
The A900/850 market failure had to do with poor performance of the sensor, if it performed well it would have done better. Pretending that the A900/850 is indicative of the future success or lack thereof of something Pentax would make is nonsense.
Nonsense? You can make any excuse for A900/850's failure. But the fact remains that the Canon/Nikon duopoly on the FF market is hard to break - even with the marketing/distributing might of Sony.

QuoteQuote:
The "current FF market condition" has nothing to do with the "future FF market condition." As prices continue to fall, the FF market will grow dramatically. The "shares" you talk about are as low as they are for ONE reason - price. As the price falls, the market share will climb, and your "predictions" about what Pentax could "expect" will look foolish.
Future FF market condition? As in 1 year? 2 years?
For goodness sake, people in this very thread are talking about a Pentax FF in Photokina! And that's less than 4 months away, my friend.

So how much do you expect the price to fall in 4 months' time?
Sony is the one most likely to announce a lower cost FF model to resurrect their FF program. After all, Sony can afford to sell PS3 at a lost for 3 1/2 years before making a dime on the console they sell; Pentax can hardly afford to do the same.

Last edited by nosnoop; 05-25-2010 at 12:05 AM.
05-25-2010, 12:09 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
So how much price do you expect the price to fall in 4 months time?
Sony is the one most likely to announce a lower cost FF model to resurrect their FF program. After all, Sony can afford to sell PS3 at a lost for 3 1/2 years before making a dime on the console they sell; Pentax can hardly afford to do the same.
Pentax doesn't need to. FWIW I think that Pentax can sell their FF cameras for a premium over comparable Canon and Nikon models. Just because the Pentax will be the better camera, both in built and in IQ. And it will sell, despite what naysayers here say.

But Pentax should do it the right way - using a non-crippled K-mount (meaning full metering with K- and M-series lenses). This alone would be worth a premium. If Pentax wants to sell more FF lenses in the future then they should offer FF lenses with added value like WR and OS.

-- But of course, many will argue that Pentax just can't. Fine with me, but I suspect I will have a FF by the beginning of 2011
05-25-2010, 12:37 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
FWIW I think that Pentax can sell their FF cameras for a premium over comparable Canon and Nikon models.
No kidding. People are always complaining Pentax products are expensive, and you think they'll gladly pay premium prices if it's about "FF"?
And who would pay premium prices, in order to comfortably (as in: with open aperture metering) use a 20$ K-/M- lens?

I think Pentax should launch a larger than APS-C (and smaller than MF) camera, as soon as possible (i.e. as soon as they can make a profit). With new lenses (few zooms are required, from the beginning) and at a price not higher than comparable Canikons.
05-25-2010, 12:44 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No kidding. People are always complaining Pentax products are expensive, and you think they'll gladly pay premium prices if it's about "FF"?
And who would pay premium prices, in order to comfortably (as in: with open aperture metering) use a 20$ K-/M- lens?
I know you know it, but paying more for a body to be able to use cheaper lenses is priceless! But sadly those cheap lenses won't stay cheap for long

QuoteQuote:
I think Pentax should launch a larger than APS-C (and smaller than MF) camera, as soon as possible (i.e. as soon as they can make a profit). With new lenses (few zooms are required, from the beginning) and at a price not higher than comparable Canikons.
I'd be all over it when a FF Pentax is on the same price level, but things like wide-open metering with old glass and a Pentax user interface with Hyper Program is definitely worth a premium. This will easily make up for the (initial) lack of lenses and earn kudos from the whole photographic community, even from Nikon and Canon land. Remember: C&N are selling tools, not cameras to be proud of which you want to take with you into your grave
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