Originally posted by WMBP I'm not following this line of thought at all.
Obviously. If you were paying attention to the "interview" post, the indication was that Pentax would upgrade existing bodies,
and produce a professional grade body "above" the K7. Now think for a moment. What can they "upgrade" on the K7, i.e., what are people clamoring about in their "wish lists" for a K7 successor? Better sensor, better autofocus, and
maybe higher frame rate is all that one could say is "lacking." I mean, what else do you want or need?! It's already a magnesium alloy body, 100% viewfinder, with a decent 5fps, what do you think is going to distinguish
another APS-C camera from an
upgraded K7?! There aren't enough "upgrades" left to make room for something "above" the K7, unless it's a FF camera.
That's the line of thought.
Originally posted by WMBP But making a FF camera in itself isn't innovative. It's more conventional thinking. It's Pentax saying, "Me, too!" Will
The same argument applies MUCH more successfully if applied to
APS-C cameras, since there's LOTS more of those. There's currently NOTHING more "me too" than
another APS-C dSLR.
Originally posted by WMBP But if the main upgrade path for me—the main way to get a better camera—is to buy a Pentax full-frame camera, I think it's quite possible Pentax will LOSE me as a customer. Nearly all of my lenses now are APS-C optimized lenses. If I have to spend thousands of dollars to buy a new body and thousands more to buy new lenses, I'm probably going to figure out a way to do that buying Nikon.
An upgraded K7 with say, better sensor, better autofocus won't satisfy you? In what way? It's not like having a FF dSLR will make all of Pentax's APS-C options disappear. As for Pentax "losing" you, I doubt it, once you start pricing
Nikon gear LOL.
Originally posted by WMBP The full-frame obsession
I simply don't understand the obsession with the full-frame idea. It's like some mythical challenge—killing the great white whale, the four-minute mile, putting a man on the moon. People seem obsessed with it. I can't for the life of me figure out why.
And what considerations now would drive somebody to full-frame? There's nothing magic about full-frame. Full-frame is a misnomer. It simply means "sensor size approximately = old 35mm film camera frame size."
How about
a viewfinder THAT DOESN'T SUCK - like every APS-C viewfinder does. If you've forgotten, or never used a film SLR, pick up a film SLR and see what you've been missing.
The first 35mm camera I ever used was a half frame rangefinder camera that was my father's. When I moved
UP to the full frame 35mm SLR from that camera, there was
absolutely zero desire to EVER move BACK DOWN in format size. There still isn't. APS-C is
less than half frame, and the reduction in format brought
no advantages and many disadvantages (stellar marketing campaigns notwithstanding). I never asked for, or wanted, an APS-C dSLR, but have been forced to wait for what I've wanted
to begin with, i.e., a 35mm format dSLR, because of sensor fabrication costs and the need for the technology to improve (and the costs come down) so that Pentax could produce a marketable FF offering. The time has come. Patience is running thin at this point, because FF doesn't mean $6,000 or $8,000 any more - it can be done for reasonable prices now. The foot dragging needs to end already. APS-C was
always a compromise design resulting from sensor costs - if not for that obstacle, Pentax never would have made an APS-C dSLR, nor would Nikon or Canon.
Originally posted by WMBP What exactly are the decisive advantages of full-frame cameras? I simply don't see them. And full-frame cameras have disadvantages, too, and I don't just mean price.
Lenses!
Bigger formats always are better than smaller formats for image quality, since the larger the format, the less demanding it is on the lens (since the lens doesn't have to resolve the details at such a small size). 35mm has been the most popular format for a long time because it struck the right balance between image quality and size/weight of equipment. APS-C is really just 35mm with an undersized sensor; once you can get 35mm format dSLRs for prices close to higher end APS-C dSLRs, the reasons for the APS-Compromise quickly vanish.
As for "seeing them," (the decisive advantages of full-frame cameras) I'll repeat my comment from above - How about
a viewfinder THAT DOESN'T SUCK - like every APS-C viewfinder does. If you've forgotten, or never used a film SLR, pick up a film SLR and see what you've been missing.
I've got a full array of FF PK mount lenses
already. As for those who must have "new" lenses, since Pentax has been making 35mm format lenses for decades, that isn't exactly a big challenge for Pentax. Plenty of third party lenses available too.
Originally posted by WMBP I just don't see Pentax succeeding as a competitor in the full-frame market against Canon and Nikon. And I don't see Pentax or Hoya coming up with any other innovative ideas that would rock the industry or at least turn people's heads.
A well priced Pentax FF dSLR with K7 build quality/features, top notch image quality, a 100% coverage/95% magnification viewfinder and full manual diaphragm controls for full backward compatibility with all K mount lenses would rock things pretty good!
Originally posted by WMBP What I do think Pentax could do, however, is make more competitive lenses: better lenses, faster, and more affordable. Affordability would be key. We're trying to compete here with Canon and Nikon, not with Zeiss!
They can make those great new lenses FF lenses. No difference in size/weight for lenses of similar focal length and aperture anyway, and they'll still work fine on your APS-C cameras.
Originally posted by WMBP What I'd like Pentax to do is make a few more outstanding and VERY FAST primes optimized for the APS-C body. By doing this, they could keep their current body design, get some attention for themselves in an area that matters to pros, and pretty much eliminate the advantages of competing full-frame cameras at least in the image quality area. I'd be delighted to pay $700 for a 100 f/1.8 or a 24 f/1.2. Would rather have one of those than a new body. I pull the $700 figure out of thin air. It's a little bit higher than the average price I've paid for my lenses. My point is, if a lens costs $1500 or $2000, well, that's a tough buying decision for me. But if it's $700 or even $800, then it's worth serious consideration.
You'll never see lenses that can "eliminate the advantages of competing FF cameras," certainly at those prices and with those apertures, when they're handicapped with resolving things at 42.25% of the size that a competing FF lens has to resolve them to.
Originally posted by WMBP I think a line-up of seriously superior prime lenses from Pentax WOULD attract attention from pros in the Canon and Nikon camps. Lenses matter more than bodies. The problem is, Nikon and Canon have great lenses, too. That's why I would suggest Pentax work on PRIMES and make 'em really, truly, noticeably superior.
In short, I think Pentax's best option is to really cater to its niche and maximize its advantages. Instead of trying to be another camera maker that makes cameras that can do everything (most of it not as well as the competition, but more cheaply), pick an area that appeals to connoisseurs and become supreme in that area. And that area appears to be lenses, not bodies. Will
Bodies matter
more than they used to, because not everyone can use an equivalent "sensor" by changing the type of "film" they load in the digital medium. When you handicap yourself with a less-than-half-size (compared with competitors) format as your
only choice, you aren't going to be competitive in the long run.
Originally posted by indyphil I find the comments about FF being niche market or "less than 10%" of the market kind of amusing. Or "If Pentax could do it they would have done it already!".
Remember when digital SLRs were 10% of the SLR market. Remember when Pentax didnt have a digital SLR to offer.
The past or present is no indication of the future.
Agreed! It's as if people are wearing blinders on this issue - the "market share" of FF is less due to price and price alone. As the FF prices get closer to high end APS-C cameras, the market share is going to increase.
Originally posted by indyphil Theres room in the Pentax line up for a world class Full frame DSLR costing between $1500 and 2000 at time of launch. Would it make lots of money? probably not, but it would keep people from running off to Canikon, it would keep me in the business of buying Pentax glass. I see folks selling their K7, K20 or K10 all day long because they went to a 5DmkII or a D700 or a 1D or D3
In the long run (the next 2-3 years or so) the competition will make FF the standard and if Pentax doesnt have a FF camera then I will leave Pentax and that means all my pentax glass (and those of the countless others that make the same choice) will flood the market. eventually it will become a stampede, Pentax would get left behind, serious photographers and newcomers would ignor the brand entirely and the K mount will die.
Every brand needs a flagship model regardless of whether it makes money, its about demonstrating its commitment to innovation and to the future.
Imagine being a TV company and insisting that youll never make a high definition TV because not many people are willing to buy a $5000 TV and you pride yourself on making smaller cheaper high volume TVs. What do you do when the competition drives the prices down from $5000 to $500 and suddenly your TVs dont sell anymore?
What is todays low volume flagship model is tomorrows industry standard. Many people (myself included) see the new technology and wait until it is more mature before we jump on it. A full frame camera around $1500 will sell like hot cakes, in much the same way as high definition TVs and flat panels started selling like hot cakes in 2008 when prices came below $1500. People who had been drooling over them for years and waiting for prices to come down finally got off the couch and pulled their wallets out. That pent up demand is there for FF and you can bet good money that Canon and Nikon are working on a mid level full frame camera as we speak. If Pentax doesnt have an answer for it in the works then it is a dead duck. all the marketing babble about being a niche player and having nice small cameras cant sell an APSC camera at the same price as the competition offers a FF camera. The only hope for Pentax then would be to abandon SLRS and sell only point and shoot cameras.
Agreed, except I think they can make plenty on a FF dSLR at this point. The sensor prices are coming down, and a FF body will get many more "early adopters" willing to pay high margin introductory prices than
another (yawn) APS-C camera, since with a few more tweaks they'll have taken APS-C about as far as it can go (i.e., they'll be nothing left to justify expensive body "upgrades").