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07-26-2010, 04:25 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
See the previous page. There was a Kx and DXO D700 comparison there

The D700 is of course an excellent box, but only in specific image parameters. Otherwise it's technically in the ball-park of the K-x on dynamic range, colour depth, and even on resolution. Amusing, but true.
No, one more time it's not. But if you just want to believe DxO results, up to you. As Angevinn, I and probably many of enthusiat Pentax users (the ones ready to spend 1000+ dollars for a single lens) am ready to leave Pentax for a brand offering more high end products (FF, because APS-C doen't give me the technical possibility for what I try to do: night portraiture). Then, who will stay in Pentax? The new Kx users? I guess for their next body they will just buy the brand offering the best offer, not taking care of the brand since they mostly use only the kit lenses. Not sure it would be a good strategy on long term for Pentax (mainly a glass maker) to believe in the low end of the market...

07-26-2010, 04:36 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
See the previous page. There was a Kx and DXO D700 comparison there

The D700 is of course an excellent box, but only in specific image parameters. Otherwise it's technically in the ball-park of the K-x on dynamic range, colour depth, and even on resolution. Amusing, but true.
D700 is a step behind D3s in ISO department, so Nikon has already a better FF sensor... but we did not see a better APS-C from Sony yet...
07-26-2010, 04:38 PM   #138
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Say It!

You said it Youky63!

The Limiteds (FullFrame Limiteds) were a great success for Pentax. Now give us some more great FullFrame lenses and a capable FullFrame DSLR to properly use them on! Don't listen to the cheapskates Pentax!

I do have another thought for Pentax. As a lifelong Nikon film user I was hesitant about purchasing Pentax. I'm glad I did though. Many Nikon and Canon users have negative views about the Pentax brand (sad but true). I believe it would be a great idea if Pentax released the FA (soon to be D-FA) Limited 31mm 1.8 in both Canon EOS and Nikon AIS or G Mount. Not all three FullFrame Limiteds, just the 31mm. I'm sure it would open the eyes of a lot of people to the Pentax brand.

Nikon and Canon make up almost 80% of the photography market. It would move a lot of lenses and bring a lot of money in the door for Pentax. It would also show the great quality Pentax has to offer.

Just a thought, I'm sure I'll be dogpiled for this.


QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
No, one more time it's not. But if you just want to believe DxO results, up to you. As Angevinn, I and probably many of enthusiat Pentax users (the ones ready to spend 1000+ dollars for a single lens) am ready to leave Pentax for a brand offering more high end products (FF, because APS-C doen't give me the technical possibility for what I try to do: night portraiture). Then, who will stay in Pentax? The new Kx users? I guess for their next body they will just buy the brand offering the best offer, not taking care of the brand since they mostly use only the kit lenses. Not sure it would be a good strategy on long term for Pentax (mainly a glass maker) to believe in the low end of the market...
07-26-2010, 05:27 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
No, one more time it's not. But if you just want to believe DxO results, up to you. As Angevinn, I and probably many of enthusiat Pentax users (the ones ready to spend 1000+ dollars for a single lens) am ready to leave Pentax for a brand offering more high end products (FF, because APS-C doen't give me the technical possibility for what I try to do: night portraiture). Then, who will stay in Pentax? The new Kx users? I guess for their next body they will just buy the brand offering the best offer, not taking care of the brand since they mostly use only the kit lenses. Not sure it would be a good strategy on long term for Pentax (mainly a glass maker) to believe in the low end of the market...
I detect an attempt at a snobbish put-down in that reply: 'I have lots of money to spend - therefore I am right and you as a cheap camera user are wrong. And DXO are wrong because I say so'.

I really don't care that much about the whole FF vs APS-C issue. If someone gave me a D700, I'd probably never touch my K-x or K200D again. But just looking at it by the numbers and the dollars, FF just isn't the slam-dunk proposition people make it out to be, if one is prepared to be even a little bit analytical about it.

07-26-2010, 05:39 PM - 1 Like   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I detect an attempt at a snobbish put-down in that reply: 'I have lots of money to spend - therefore I am right and you as a cheap camera user are wrong. And DXO are wrong because I say so'.

I really don't care that much about the whole FF vs APS-C issue. If someone gave me a D700, I'd probably never touch my K-x or K200D again. But just looking at it by the numbers and the dollars, FF just isn't the slam-dunk proposition people make it out to be, if one is prepared to be even a little bit analytical about it.
Nikon artificially price their cameras high. It's part of their mystique and savvy understanding of the BMW effect. Of course, this started the Hitler parodies...

...so Nikonians are pretty good at putting themselves down!

But the D3 and D700 are leagues above anything by Pentax. It's a big body, big glass, system. Paired with the the 14-24, 24-70 they rival any and every DSLR prime lens and can see in the dark with AF faster than an eyeblink doing so.

The D300 is no slouch either, especially in the AF dept. The K-7 is a solid notch below.

But, you need a chiropractor on staff to help recover from lugging that gear around, and more $$$ for the inevitable Gitzo.

But soon, FF will be the *only* way to gain performance as size will matter and costs will drop. All the microlens and software lens tweaking applies regardless of sensor size (and the M9 Leica has those in spades for the purist to ponder), so at some point, sooner rather than later, the $70 per chip cost advantage APS-C has over FF will be more like $15, and one of Canikonsony will shove an FF into a $1,200 DSLR and the whole game shifts.

Then they'll do it for EVIL as, again, this will be the only way to gain a performance and subsequent sales edge over the competition.

There is no technical reason why the sensor has to be smaller than FF on a basic handheld lens system that the average human hand can grip; only a economic one, and that factor is shrinking even as you read this.
07-26-2010, 05:46 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I detect an attempt at a snobbish put-down in that reply: 'I have lots of money to spend - therefore I am right and you as a cheap camera user are wrong. And DXO are wrong because I say so'.

I really don't care that much about the whole FF vs APS-C issue. If someone gave me a D700, I'd probably never touch my K-x or K200D again. But just looking at it by the numbers and the dollars, FF just isn't the slam-dunk proposition people make it out to be, if one is prepared to be even a little bit analytical about it.
Sorry if you understood me like that, it was not my meanings. Many people here have already spend more money in Pentax glasses and bodies that I will never do. I was just saying that there is people (including me) that are ready to spend quite a lot of money for a FF system. Because we need it.
I exactely do what you say: I do not compare FF and APS-C by numbers (DxO) but by actual results. And what I can see is that no actual APS-C body can give me as much as a FF body would do. I need 6400 isos to be clean (noise, color variations, DR), with the possibility to use 12800 isos. I want one of these very large OVF. I want the ability to get details from under- and over-exposed area on my pictures by PP, even more than 2EV difference without revealing hidden noise (D700 does easily). And I would not be against the possibility to have all of this with a sensor of 20+ Mpxls. I would even add (cherry on the cake) that I would love a sensor without low pass filter to get real details of landscape when watching them at 100%, just as the 645D.
I agree it is impossible to get such a body. But at least some of this points could be easily improved compare to actual offer. Just by upgrading APS-C sensor with FF sensor. If not Pentax, then I could move to Canon. I always loved their L lenses. If they decide to give the ergonomics of 7D (closer to Pentax and much better than any other Canon body before, even Canonist agree on that) to their new high end models, it would probably be the end of my (short) Pentaxist life.
07-26-2010, 06:41 PM   #142
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It appears Sony is dropping Full Frame. This guy is usually pretty reliable. He explanation of the cost/benefit of Full Frame cameras is interesting. I would have no idea if he is correct or not.

Thom Hogan's Nikon Field Guide and Nikon Flash Guide

See: Sony Sensor Shake UP.

I guess that would just leave Canon, Leica, and Nikon in that market. Can't see Pentax trying to compete with them.
07-26-2010, 06:53 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
It appears Sony is dropping Full Frame. This guy is usually pretty reliable. He explanation of the cost/benefit of Full Frame cameras is interesting. I would have no idea if he is correct or not.

Thom Hogan's Nikon Field Guide and Nikon Flash Guide

See: Sony Sensor Shake UP.

I guess that would just leave Canon, Leica, and Nikon in that market. Can't see Pentax trying to compete with them.
Sony is losing bucketloads of money these days. Their retail products division is in freefall. Their entertainment sector has its ups and downs, but track over the last 5 years, mostly down.

Sony wants to be mass market *and* pro. It's having troubles in every sector with that approach. Sony overvalues its own brand. To young people, it's Oldsmobile.

So what Thom makes sense, to some degree. But the cost difference between FX and DX is closer to $150 than $450. The world right now has over-capacity to produce such items. Right now what is lacking is demand.

Also, the Sony e-mount can handle FF. Either Sony is rudderless on the long-term development of the NEX/e-mount system, or they're only putting off the inevitable.

Also, I cannot see Sony pulling out of the FX sensor biz jus because they may be scaling back their FF line. They're manufacturing arm is mercenary, and frankly, the only thing making the company decent profits. It's their retail end that's a swamp of poor execution.

07-26-2010, 10:59 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
If the FullFrame format is such a narrow slice of the market why was the Nikon D700 such a big success for Nikon?
It depends on what you consider as success.
In the month of June, D700 came in at #49 in Japan DSLR sales chart. And 5D II outsold it by at least 2:1 last month in Japan.

QuoteQuote:
If Pentax doesn't have a FullFrame camera in 2011 I will be leaving the Pentax camp and purchasing the Nikon D700 replacement which will be released this fall.
There's an old adage in sales & marketing, "Give the customer what they want."
IMHO, it looks like your days as a Pentax owner are numbered. With a top selling brand name power of Nikon, and a critically acclaimed camera model... and the best it could do is #49. I just shiver to imagine what a Pentax FF would do. Unfortunately, there are simply not enough of customer like you for Pentax.
07-26-2010, 11:04 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So what Thom makes sense, to some degree. But the cost difference between FX and DX is closer to $150 than $450. The world right now has over-capacity to produce such items. Right now what is lacking is demand.
Is this your speculation/estimation or facts?
Many quoted 20x as price of FF sensor over that of APS-C.
07-26-2010, 11:48 PM   #146
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Nonsense

Your post makes no sense nosnoop. The Nikon D700 is two years old and has been quietly clearanced out by Nikon. Many places have no D700's to even sell, its been this way for the last few months. You are going by numbers at the end of a product's life cycle and with a very limited amount of available stock.

Nice try.


If my days of being a Pentax owner are numbered that's fine. It's a sad reflection on Pentax that they do not sell products that offer a path to upgrade. Only two APS-C DSLR's???

I at least spoke up and let my intentions be known. Hoya/Pentax does read this forum. I mean what I have said about changing camera makers. APS-C does not appeal to me. I write the checks.

Regards,

A.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
It depends on what you consider as success.
In the month of June, D700 came in at #49 in Japan DSLR sales chart. And 5D II outsold it by at least 2:1 last month in Japan.


IMHO, it looks like your days as a Pentax owner are numbered. With a top selling brand name power of Nikon, and a critically acclaimed camera model... and the best it could do is #49. I just shiver to imagine what a Pentax FF would do. Unfortunately, there are simply not enough of customer like you for Pentax.
07-27-2010, 12:33 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Your post makes no sense nosnoop. The Nikon D700 is two years old and has been quietly clearanced out by Nikon. Many places have no D700's to even sell, its been this way for the last few months. You are going by numbers at the end of a product's life cycle and with a very limited amount of available stock.
Nice try.
Make no sense?
I checked most of the places including bhphotovideo, adorama; and in a few online Japanese store including amazon.co.jp - all of them have plenty of stock of D700. And D700 is in stock in all the online stores I have checked in Canada as well. I don't see any evidence of limited stock anywhere.

D90 is also almost 2 years old and very close to the end of its life cycle, and guess what? It was the #1 best selling DSLR in Japan last month, outselling every other DSLRs. And the trend of D700 outsold by 5D II by 2:1 or more in Japan has been like that for a while already.
07-27-2010, 05:03 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Make no sense?
I checked most of the places including bhphotovideo, adorama; and in a few online Japanese store including amazon.co.jp - all of them have plenty of stock of D700. And D700 is in stock in all the online stores I have checked in Canada as well. I don't see any evidence of limited stock anywhere.

D90 is also almost 2 years old and very close to the end of its life cycle, and guess what? It was the #1 best selling DSLR in Japan last month, outselling every other DSLRs. And the trend of D700 outsold by 5D II by 2:1 or more in Japan has been like that for a while already.
Both the D90 and D700 are scheduled for a Photokina upgrade. The D700 is an in-house Nikon sensor and makes them bucketloads of $$$ because it spurs high-margin lens sales. In fact, Nikon is back ordered on many lenses.

More to the point, no sooner does Thom say his piece, than Sony lets loose with a barrage of new lenses, FF-ready:

Sony unveils 24mm F2, 35mm F1.8 and 85mm F2.8 Alpha lenses: Digital Photography Review
07-27-2010, 05:57 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
More to the point, no sooner does Thom say his piece, than Sony lets loose with a barrage of new lenses, FF-ready:

Sony unveils 24mm F2, 35mm F1.8 and 85mm F2.8 Alpha lenses: Digital Photography Review
The news you link says that the 35/1,8 is for APS-C only...
07-27-2010, 06:38 AM   #150
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Thom

Just goes to show once again how pathetically incompetent his arm chair analyses are. I can't believe people pay attention to his self-authoritative musings, I guess if you sound competent people will swallow it. I much prefer Ken Rockwell at least he does not pretend to be anything more than he is. Thom is a Thosser.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
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