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05-28-2010, 12:46 PM   #31
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Sigma lenses give expensive lenses "a run for money" too, but they aren't in the same league. To make it on par with the D700 system you have, Pentax has to fix the flash, AF, an array of lenses etc. High iso noise and dof are something cannot be cheated either. Can Pentax pull these off with a single body? I don't think so. B4 any previous Pentax DSLR release, there were lots of rumours and promises, which all turned out to be less exciting eventually. Take Pentax for what they are, but don't waste time imagine they would be highend Canon or Nikon eventually.


Last edited by wlachan; 05-28-2010 at 12:53 PM.
05-28-2010, 01:11 PM   #32
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I hope Pentax fill the wedding / indoor segment of the market a bit better with their next release, although I'm not sure it will be in FF. Pentax already beats the living snot out of the 5D Mk II for studio and landscape work as seen in the comparison shots as seen in ogl's post (and the K7 does quite well against the Mk II). Do they want to tackle this market as well (at least right now)?

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/102900-...-5d-mk-ii.html

I guess the question is if Pentax is going after that segment of the market, or do they think they can fill it with a tweeked K7?
05-28-2010, 01:59 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
Sigma lenses give expensive lenses "a run for money" too, but they aren't in the same league. To make it on par with the D700 system you have, Pentax has to fix the flash, AF, an array of lenses etc. High iso noise and dof are something cannot be cheated either. Can Pentax pull these off with a single body? I don't think so. B4 any previous Pentax DSLR release, there were lots of rumours and promises, which all turned out to be less exciting eventually. Take Pentax for what they are, but don't waste time imagine they would be highend Canon or Nikon eventually.
Well, with the K-7...I consider the AE and flash exposure partially fixed. All it needs now is a flash exposure *lock*, a non-suck flash selection, and a metal locking pin.

AF, I agree there's still some way to go :\ I suspect though it has more to do with lens gearing, because I have shot with dog-slow AF lenses on a D300, too...

I'm not sure how DOF can be fixed with APS-C. Maybe release faster lenses?

So you're highlighting a multitude of problems that a body alone cannot fix. However, if the progress from K10->K20->K-7->Kx gives any indication...the next time should have almost everything fixable on the body fixed.

The rest of the job is to fix the *system*, which takes quite a bit more effort than releasing a single body.
05-28-2010, 02:34 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by wolfier Quote
Well, with the K-7...I consider the AE and flash exposure partially fixed. All it needs now is a flash exposure *lock*, a non-suck flash selection, and a metal locking pin.
Don't forget wireless features Nikon offers too. I love the 580EX II shoe design btw.

QuoteOriginally posted by wolfier Quote
AF, I agree there's still some way to go :\ I suspect though it has more to do with lens gearing, because I have shot with dog-slow AF lenses on a D300, too...
For some unknown reason predictive AF is missing on all Pentax DSLRs. It was available on the Z-1. The existing AF-C is not predictive so by the time the exposure was made, the subject might be slightly in-front or behind the focus. It really has much to do with how smart the AF is, instead of sheer speed. What lens you used on the D300 btw?

QuoteOriginally posted by wolfier Quote
I'm not sure how DOF can be fixed with APS-C. Maybe release faster lenses?
Perhaps, but faster lenses will always be more expensive, and there is limit on how fast lenses can be made in practice. Though not related to Pentax, the Zuiko Digital f2 zooms are so big and expensive, they pretty much void any advantage the 4/3 promised.

QuoteOriginally posted by wolfier Quote
So you're highlighting a multitude of problems that a body alone cannot fix. However, if the progress from K10->K20->K-7->Kx gives any indication...the next time should have almost everything fixable on the body fixed.
The rest of the job is to fix the *system*, which takes quite a bit more effort than releasing a single body.
I think Pentax K system have been improving if a bit slowly but surely. However, as a whole the system is still not quite as good as the C/N mid range gears yet. The problem I can see is that Pentax seem to resist on addressing some issues that have been reported by users for years, and they are a little inconsistent on each body designs. For instance, the K-x has noiser mirror/shutter than the K-m. The K-7 is quiet mirror/shutter but worse iso performance than K-x. And why stopped with plastic back, why not all the way? Perhaps due to budget constrain, Pentax seem to design their products well then with a few quirks every time. This tendency leaves some users with 1/2 satisfied experience.

05-28-2010, 03:32 PM   #35
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QuoteQuote:
To which the Pentax technician said "John, hang on to your seat, there's something coming-up that will give your FF a run for its money".
We have heard this kind of hyperbolic chatter before. I hope that it is true, but I think we should all stay calm until an actual product arrives.

Rob
05-28-2010, 05:37 PM   #36
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I'm not sure why Pentax users lust after FF. FF has its place just like MF, but APS-C is more than capable. Certain areas of photography are better served by MF, some by FF, but for most APS-C or 4/3 is more than enough.
05-28-2010, 06:22 PM   #37
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i'll tell you what, upgrading the flash system is a bigger deal for me than a bigger sensor.

I shoot with multiple off body manual flashes and have a good time doing it but i've gotta say I would like to have a system comparable to nikons (surpassing them is silly, its a fantastic system). Its a damn shame that pentax only has one current model flash that swivels. To me swiveling is one of the most important parts of an on-body flash.

Give me an improved AF system and maybe some flash updates and I will be a happier pentaxian. I am definitely buying the next Pentax top level body, unless it gets way too expensive. Afterall, using the k7 AF system correctly and not expecting miracles its already pretty good I hear.
05-28-2010, 07:25 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
Pentax seem to design their products well then with a few quirks every time. This tendency leaves some users with 1/2 satisfied experience.
No product by any manufacturer is perfect, of will completely satisfy all users.
Fortunately, there are plenty of options in the DSLR market.

05-28-2010, 07:55 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
I am often amazed how little Pentax personnel and camera sales people in general know about things to come, even with products that have already been officially communicated such as the 645D. Perhaps they are only letting on, preferring to push current products on sale (or in stock) rather than have someone wait for a product to come and risk these potential customers changing their minds and picking another product from a competitor?
It's my impression that Pentax Japan is very much the "real" company, with the various international affiliates responsible for marketing, distribution, and contracting for warranty service in their respective countries. There does not seem to be much flow of technical information in either direction.

(This has been a particular frustration in my effort to put solid, detailed facts in my flash guide, but I think it's reasonable to generalize.)
05-29-2010, 06:32 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
Don't forget wireless features Nikon offers too. I love the 580EX II shoe design btw.
I consider the strobe-controlled solution quite adequate for my use. Of course, a non-strobe protocol in P-TTL would be great.

QuoteQuote:
For some unknown reason predictive AF is missing on all Pentax DSLRs. It was available on the Z-1. The existing AF-C is not predictive so by the time the exposure was made, the subject might be slightly in-front or behind the focus. It really has much to do with how smart the AF is, instead of sheer speed. What lens you used on the D300 btw?
And no "release/focus priority" to choose. Z-1's predictive focus was quite primitive compared to Nikon's offerings, so it needs to be redeveloped, with more focus points. If you try any of the early AF lenses on Nikon (earlier than AF-D), e.g. the 80-200 f/2.8 AF, it's ridiculously slow, and hunts more than its AF-D and AF-S counterparts, on the same body (the one I tried was a D300, I now shoot with a D700 but it's reasonable to assume the slow lens will focus just as slow there, too) So, lens gearing is an important factor, too. If you try the FA35-80, it focuses lightening fast, faster than a lot of Nikon AF-D lenses.

QuoteQuote:
I think Pentax K system have been improving if a bit slowly but surely. However, as a whole the system is still not quite as good as the C/N mid range gears yet. The problem I can see is that Pentax seem to resist on addressing some issues that have been reported by users for years, and they are a little inconsistent on each body designs. For instance, the K-x has noiser mirror/shutter than the K-m. The K-7 is quiet mirror/shutter but worse iso performance than K-x. And why stopped with plastic back, why not all the way? Perhaps due to budget constrain, Pentax seem to design their products well then with a few quirks every time. This tendency leaves some users with 1/2 satisfied experience.
In the shutter noise department, the grass is not always greener over there. For example, I'm quite fond of the D70s' shutter sound. Although it's still not as quiet as K-7's, it's very mushed, damped, and makes you wonder if the lack of MLU on that body is really a disadvantage at all. OTOH the D700's shutter noise is a disaster even compared to the D70s'.
05-29-2010, 08:20 PM   #41
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Aps-h?

I gather that this is a topic that has been discussed to death here, but I'd appreciate it if someone could quickly rehearse the reasons why it is generally believed that APS-H is a non-starter format. I ask this (just in case it's not obvious in this context) because it's quite conceivable that a next-generation sensor in APS-H format could well result in impressive high-ISO and resolution improvements, while retaining a significant cost advantage over FF.*

In short, I can easily imagine a new APS-H system being billed as being as good as FF with little or no exaggeration....

In fact, I was tempted to start a poll for the self-confessed "FF whiners", asking if they would consider a pro-level APS-H system sufficient for their needs. But I'll content myself with this query for now.


-----------------------
* According to Canon:

QuoteQuote:
Interestingly, the APS-H sensor of the EOS-1D Mark II N is the largest size that can be imaged in one shot onto a wafer. Extended through the whole sensor production process, the difference in price between the 1D Mark II N and the 1Ds Mark II can be readily understood.
05-29-2010, 10:16 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
I gather that this is a topic that has been discussed to death here, but I'd appreciate it if someone could quickly rehearse the reasons why it is generally believed that APS-H is a non-starter format. I ask this (just in case it's not obvious in this context) because it's quite conceivable that a next-generation sensor in APS-H format could well result in impressive high-ISO and resolution improvements, while retaining a significant cost advantage over FF.*

In short, I can easily imagine a new APS-H system being billed as being as good as FF with little or no exaggeration....

In fact, I was tempted to start a poll for the self-confessed "FF whiners", asking if they would consider a pro-level APS-H system sufficient for their needs. But I'll content myself with this query for now.


-----------------------
* According to Canon:
I guess any kind of bigger sensor could be OK. But there is 2 problems with APS-H:
-Canon is the only one producing them, so Pentax doesn't have any chance to build an APS-H body
-APS-H is bigger than APS-C, so it is the same problem than FF sensors, they cannot work with the actual DA line and will require the same new lenses than a FF sensor. Then, I guess people will prefer FF than APS-H because bigger so "better image quality". And maybe FF sensors would be even cheaper since the total production will be higher (Sony + Nikon + Pentax) than a specific APS-H sensor made only for Pentax.
05-29-2010, 11:28 PM   #43
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Dalsa also make sensors, being the primary competitor to Kodak, Dalsa makes the sensors for phase one and Sinar digital backs. They even made a 4X5" sensor for NASA.

If pentax wanted to make a full frame camera they have the pick of the litter when it comes to sensors.

Last edited by Digitalis; 05-30-2010 at 12:02 AM.
05-30-2010, 06:35 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Blah, Sony Will give nikon 6 to 12 months exclusivity so don't hold your breath for that Sony sensor.
That used to be true in the past, but now things are different. Take for example the A900/D3x sensor - Sony released its FF in Sept 2008, while Nikon's version came out in December. The D300 only had about one month advantage to the A700.
The fact that Nikon managed to get better performance than Sony, from those sensors, is a whole different story Pentax did it too, in the K-x, which to me looks slightly better at high ISO than Sony's A500.
So it's entirely possible for the A7xx sensor to show up in a Pentax camera at Photokina, and with improved IQ too.
05-30-2010, 07:12 AM   #45
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To say honest, I don't have any interest to camera above K-7 with APS-C sensor.
I have video camera and I don't care about video in DSLR at all. Better video, more video settings, more fps and some new features at APS-C - it's not interested at all.

The camera above K-7 must be FF.

I have interest for camera a bit lower than K-7 with WR - something like K200D with new sensor and for FF camera from Pentax.

new APS-C camera higher than K-7 - I don't see any sense now.

Add video setting and make some minor upgrade and lower noise in K-7 - name K-7 super and it will be enough now.

But camera higher than K-x and FF are very need.
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