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06-02-2010, 11:03 PM   #136
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A, FA/DA50 f1.2 WR would be a nice replacement!

06-02-2010, 11:13 PM   #137
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Have any facts put in an apppearance yet?
06-03-2010, 02:14 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
They aren't buying SLR cameras to have access to a bunch of lens options, they are buying them because they have been told that they take better pictures than their P&S cameras.

This is the way it was when I sold cameras in the 80s, and it's still how it works. We think we are the norm, but the bulk of the SLR market really are using their cameras as glorified P&Ss.
This is absolutely correct. It is evidenced by the fact that most people, even those who own a DSLR with kit lens, will balk at the price of a normal fast zoom such as the Tamron 17-50 2.8, which is relatively cheap. Iīve seen many people balk at that one. Most people believe that cameras can be expensive (if they are good), but lenses must always be cheap because they add very little to the image. This is the bigest fallacy in the consumer camera world, but it is extremely widespread. Thus, most people see no reason to move beyond a kit lens as they view other lenses, especially if they are expensive, as completely unnecessary as they already have the camera.

If I take a picture with a compact & then the same picture with a DSLR (say a portrait pic, to get the DoF, or a fast action pic to freeze motion) and show them to someone who does not know about these things, what will they say??? They will say "Wow, thatīs a great camera."

They will never, never, ever, say "Wow, thatīs a great lens youīve got on there."

(As an aside, they will also never say "Wow, you really know how to use your gear." But thatīs another story. )
06-03-2010, 02:50 AM   #139
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I don't feel that I pay for in-body 'IS' (or actually 'SR' as Pentax puts it) when I buy a new Pentax lens. The DA 35 f/2.8 Macro Limited cost the way it does because it is full metal, it is a macro and it is beautifully crafted.

The Tokina 35 f/2.8 Macro has the same optical construction and it is more expensive than the Pentax. Now, do I pay for "inbody 'IS'" if I pay the extra premium for the Tokina lens in Nikon or Canon mount compared to the Pentax version?

For the money I paid for the DA 35 Macro, I felt it was a bargain. So much quality and feel!

06-03-2010, 03:34 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
This is absolutely correct. It is evidenced by the fact that most people, even those who own a DSLR with kit lens, will balk at the price of a normal fast zoom such as the Tamron 17-50 2.8, which is relatively cheap. Iīve seen many people balk at that one. Most people believe that cameras can be expensive (if they are good), but lenses must always be cheap because they add very little to the image. This is the bigest fallacy in the consumer camera world, but it is extremely widespread. Thus, most people see no reason to move beyond a kit lens as they view other lenses, especially if they are expensive, as completely unnecessary as they already have the camera.

If I take a picture with a compact & then the same picture with a DSLR (say a portrait pic, to get the DoF, or a fast action pic to freeze motion) and show them to someone who does not know about these things, what will they say??? They will say "Wow, thatīs a great camera."

They will never, never, ever, say "Wow, thatīs a great lens youīve got on there."

(As an aside, they will also never say "Wow, you really know how to use your gear." But thatīs another story. )
This is 100% correct.
06-03-2010, 04:02 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
If I take a picture with a compact & then the same picture with a DSLR (say a portrait pic, to get the DoF, or a fast action pic to freeze motion) and show them to someone who does not know about these things, what will they say??? They will say "Wow, thatīs a great camera."

They will never, never, ever, say "Wow, thatīs a great lens youīve got on there."
Yes, strange isn't it? When they tell me that I have a good camera (after looking at my pictures) I always ask them if they tell a cook that he surely must have got great pans & pots that his food tastes so good?
06-03-2010, 04:38 AM   #142
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CIPA 2009 lens buying statistics

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don't know how it works in your market area,
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Back to the topic of the thread: most people will not move past the kit lens
So, here are some hard facts. I compiled them for your lazy talker's convenience from the 2009 CIPA data which have been published back in April.

My complete analysis is in the appendix.

The summary here:
  1. The average dSLR in the US (North America actually) is $455, in Asia it is $592. And Asia buys a larger number of units too
  2. Ignoring kit lenses, on average, there is one lens sold per 0.6 bodies, of 90% its average price, making for about 50% of the body market.
  3. Body and lens prices have declined up to 20% (Europe). And remained stable in Asia.
  4. Asia is now the second market for bodies and third market for lenses, Europe being first and North America being third and second, resp. The US market has declined the most (2009), Asia has grown actually.
So, overall, I would say that 70% of buyers belong into the entry-level dSLR + kit only category. But 30% buy higher up and spend as much for lenses (3 or more) as they do for bodies -- making for the 1.6 average.

I wouldn't call 30% "a few only". It's those 30% which make the camera industry go. It's those 30% which lead the other 70% to move up from P&S at all. It's those 30% which create the revenue.

Esp. as camera prices will decline as soon as technological progress for imaging sensors will slow (which is inevitable) and lens prices will not.


It's the lenses which make a system camera maker float or sink.



P.S.
There are 0.0060 non-kit lenses sold per North American per year. Or 6,000 in a million people city. Or 20 per day. This may give an idea of lenses sold per day and shop. Assuming lenses are kept for 20 years, you need to meet 8 people to meet another lens


[source: http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/silver.html]


.

Last edited by falconeye; 06-15-2011 at 05:29 AM.
06-03-2010, 05:29 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The only reason to buy Pentax bodies is to be able to use the lenses. The cameras themselves are pretty outclassed by the competition.
Allow me to politely disagree. There is *nothing* on the market that combines K-7's robustness, ergonomics, size and capabilities at its price point. The closest is probably the Canon 50D, and it lacks weather-sealing, SR and movie mode. It is also large, heavy, and has Canon-craptastic ergonomics (ok, that last one is subjective ) And the K-7's IQ is better.

06-03-2010, 05:33 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Have any facts put in an apppearance yet?
Here's a fact: Every student I know, photography student or otherwise, wants or has a fast 50 for their DSLR. Even if they hardly know a thing about photography or technique. That EF 50mm f1.8 (which gets a worse rap than it deserves here) is a favorite on campus and seems to drive a lot of sales. A friend of mine even ponied up for Oly's 50mm f2 macro so as not to feel too left out!

I present this as a fact, as requested. This is not a hyperbolized anecdote. I am simply stating that every single one I know has a desire for a fast 50. I can't understand how it can be suggested that such a thing is "not wanted" by the market. Perhaps a portion of the market, but to a very important sector of the market lens choices are a big deal.

College students/other young people may not be the largest available market, but they are still an important demographic because, well, the members of Pentax's established market who already know Pentax are not going to be around forever. New buyers have to be brought in.

One was telling me how he was interested in the K-x, but he was concerned over whether or not there was a fast 50 available for it. I assured him that the FA50 would suit him just fine, and since he can afford $250 for the lens easily it worked out fine. Most other students I know in that position would have looked at the $250 price tag and said "screw it, I'm getting a Rebel."

It's an industry-standard product that most buyers who have an intent to actually build a system (the people who will drive lens revenues and eventually buy higher-margin lenses as well) look at when considering a brand. If you can't appeal to them, they buy into another brand, and their money later goes to that brand's higher-profit lenses rather than Pentax's.
06-03-2010, 05:46 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
So, here are some hard facts.
Thanks for injecting some actual data in amidst all the conjecture.
06-03-2010, 05:47 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
I present this as a fact, as requested. This is not a hyperbolized anecdote. I am simply stating that every single one I know has a desire for a fast 50. I can't understand how it can be suggested that such a thing is "not wanted" by the market. Perhaps a portion of the market, but to a very important sector of the market lens choices are a big deal.
It's kind of weird that it's still a fast 50 though - it used to be a fast normal lens. My sister was very disappointed some years ago when she bought a Canon EOS film camera which had a dreadful kit lens (kit lenses nowadays, even Canon's, are much better). I urged her to buy a 50/1.8, and she did, and was very happy with that. When she recently upgraded to a 450D, she continued to use the 50, until it broke, but she wasn't really happy with it for the intended use (indoor photos of the kids). She didn't like at all that it suddenly was a tele lens. Now she's using a Sigma 30/1.4...

I think the mantra "buy a fast fifty" stems from the days when Canon film camera kit lenses were plastic junk. Of course they fifties are wonderful portrait lenses these days, but I'm still a bit confused that they're still so popular - why not 28-35mm lenses instead? Is it simply a question of price, or has the motivation for having the fast fifty changed?
06-03-2010, 06:13 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote

I think the mantra "buy a fast fifty" stems from the days when Canon film camera kit lenses were plastic junk. Of course they fifties are wonderful portrait lenses these days, but I'm still a bit confused that they're still so popular - why not 28-35mm lenses instead? Is it simply a question of price, or has the motivation for having the fast fifty changed?
Price is the largest factor, as well as an obsession with the unnecessary usage of bokeh (easier to achieve at 50mm) and shallow dof in general, a desire for better low-light ability at a low cost (that sigma is $400+, after all), and the halo of working with a prime lens (theoretically forcing creativity and learning).

If there were fast 28mm or 35mm lenses available at decent prices, however, I certainly do think they'd be snapped up by a lot of the people who are otherwise looking for a fast 50. I think that's already happening with Nikon's 35mm f1.8, but I think it would happen even faster if that lens were priced closer to their old nifty fifty.

Personally, 50mm is my favorite focal length on APS-C anyways.
06-03-2010, 06:39 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
P I think that's already happening with Nikon's 35mm f1.8, but I think it would happen even faster if that lens were priced closer to their old nifty fifty.
Hmm, yes, just checked Amazon (US) best seller list for lenses, and the 35/1.8 is currently #7, not bad:

1. Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4.0-5.6 IS
2. Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II
3. Canon EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III
4. Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED IF AF-S VR
5. Nikon 50mm f/1.8D AF
6. Nikon 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED IF AF-S DX VR
7. Nikon 35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX
8. Canon EF 50mm f1.4 USM
9. Nikon 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G AF-S ED VR II
10. Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM
06-03-2010, 06:42 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Have any facts put in an apppearance yet?
Yes. Everything that I've posted.
06-03-2010, 06:53 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Allow me to politely disagree. There is *nothing* on the market that combines K-7's robustness, ergonomics, size and capabilities at its price point. The closest is probably the Canon 50D, and it lacks weather-sealing, SR and movie mode. It is also large, heavy, and has Canon-craptastic ergonomics (ok, that last one is subjective ) And the K-7's IQ is better.
I deliberately stayed away from price point, hoping that the apologists would stay out of it.
My mistake.
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