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06-01-2010, 08:20 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I agree there. Some people definitely didn't have their heads and asses wired up when they came up with that. Then they started pushing the WR 18-55mm with the K-7.
Absolutely. There has been no consistent strategy from Pentax, an no logical marketing plan.

Belay that! Their Optio compact line actually does have a plan including WR compacts with HD video. Lousy IQ, though. Fix that and Pentax competes.

06-02-2010, 12:15 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The paradox of the prime is that its appeal is largely to the dedicated prosumer
I know the plural of anecdote isn't statistic, but from the people around me (who are definitely not prosumers) who own various Nikon and Canon bodies, I'd say about half of them own a cheap 35 or 50mm lens. The fact that these cheap lenses are among the best selling lenses also suggests you are, well, wrong.
06-02-2010, 12:17 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Most K-x buyers are taking the kit zoom and they are done. Or they might buy a 50-300 and they are done.
Maybe that's because... there is no cheap prime? Could someone explain to me why other brands sell cheap primes by the truckload, and the mystic Pentax entry-level consumer wouldn't want one?
06-02-2010, 01:50 AM   #109
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I agree with kevinschoenmakers.
I am also posting on some other forums and half of the people (new in DSLR world) initially thinking to buy a Pentax r wondering Pentax/Canon/Nikon finally choose C or N because they have that kind of cheap fast lens. The problem for people buying a new Pentax is that they know that if they want something fast with AF, they will have to pay a lot of money, more than the price of there body (Kx). While in C/N/S for about 100€/$ you can get a "special indoor fast lens". I understand them and really want for Pentax that the situation will change, quickly.

06-02-2010, 05:18 AM   #110
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I'll put in a word on the pro-fast-cheap-prime side. Models like the K-x aim at drawing new people into the system (a LOT... I never heard students wanting a camera mention Pentax before, but now the K-x pops up in every discussion), and the many photography-enthusiastic students I know go out and get a cheap fast prime (usually a 50mm) first thing to put on their new cameras. Some of them who are bargain shoppers even skip the kit lens and just go with a prime.

If it's got decent optics (again, how hard could it be to just copy the optics from the M 50mm F1.7 and just update the coatings?) at a good price (in line with what others are charging for their entry-level fast 50s), a lot of people, including that newer market that the K-x drew in, as well as experienced Pentax shooters like myself, will buy it regardless of how cheaply it's built (can't be any worse than Canon's F1.8 ). They could probably even weatherseal it cheaply given the lack of moving parts and have an extra selling point.

R+D would be minimal, it would be cheap to produce, and I can almost garauntee it would be one of Pentax's top sellers within a year or so. It would also help hold on to users who eventually leave the brand due to a lack of cheap, fast primes (which has been happening since the price bump). It would certainly ship far more volume than a lens like, say, the DA* 200mm, not to mention Pentax's other higher-up lenses, and it would keep people in the system so that they could aspire to the higher-end lenses over time.

I don't see what's not to like. Offering an industry-standard product like a cheap fast 50 does not lower a brand's prestige, it just boosts their image by making their lineup more complete.
06-02-2010, 05:51 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
I don't see what's not to like. Offering an industry-standard product like a cheap fast 50 does not lower a brand's prestige, it just boosts their image by making their lineup more complete.
OK, I'll agree, but ONLY if this cheap fast 50 is better optically than Canon's Plastic Fantastic.
06-02-2010, 06:10 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
Maybe that's because... there is no cheap prime? Could someone explain to me why other brands sell cheap primes by the truckload, and the mystic Pentax entry-level consumer wouldn't want one?
Because a lot of Pentaxians really want Pentax to be Leica. You know, with the type of consumer where if you have to ask how much, you can't afford it. Once we weed out the riffraff, Pentax will be free to make money because they have an even smaller share of the market.

It's a brilliant strategy.
06-02-2010, 06:18 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
OK, I'll agree, but ONLY if this cheap fast 50 is better optically than Canon's Plastic Fantastic.
With a metal mount! Plastic mount primes belong on Holga. (That's the market CaNikon are secretly targeting with their plastic mount primes.)

06-02-2010, 06:37 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Most K-x buyers are taking the kit zoom and they are done. Or they might buy a 50-300 and they are done.
I just bought a k-x for my first dslr. I was going to go for a k-7 for better build quality but went with the k-x because low light is a unavoidable for me. I also got a fast 50 mm prime to go with it because of the low light. Instead of the pentax fa 50 mm I went with the sigma 50 mm. The pentax seemed overpriced for something that everyone says has a dodgy motor and subpar build quality.

If they come out with an all plastic DAL 35mm/1.x for $100 and a well built DA 35mm/1.x for $200-250 I would jump at the second and I think a lot of people would jump at the first.

They could even make the DAL only available as part of a kit.
06-02-2010, 06:47 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
Maybe that's because... there is no cheap prime? Could someone explain to me why other brands sell cheap primes by the truckload, and the mystic Pentax entry-level consumer wouldn't want one?
Actually, it's because the majority of entry level camera buyers are convinced that zoom lenses are better simply because they zoom.
Could you explain to me where you are getting numbers like truckload?
Or might it have to do with other brands having something like 97% market share, so even if 1 user in 20 buys a prime lens, they are going to sell a lot of them.
Anyway, I'm all for Pentax selling some less expensive lenses after they have a complete lens line, which they don't have at the moment, but Pentax is interested in making money, and cheap lenses don't do that unless they sell in real numbers.
Pentax doesn't have the userbase to support it any longer, which is likely why we saw the 50/1.4 nearly double in price.
06-02-2010, 07:04 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Could you explain to me where you are getting numbers like truckload?
Amazon.com: Digital Camera Lenses

Number 1 is the Canon 55-250. Number 2 is the Canon 50mm 1.8, number 3 is the Nikon 50mm 1.8. Both of the latter cost less than 125 dollars.

http://www.amazon.de/Objektive-Kamera-Foto-Zubeh%C3%B6r/b/ref=amb_link_59123...pf_rd_i=571860

Number 4 is the 35mm from Nikon, number 6 is the 50mm.

http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=amb_link_54683707_11?ie=UTF8&bbn=14054801&rh=n:14..._rd_i=13910691

Number 2 is the Canon 50mm, the Nikon 50 and 35 follow at 4 and 8.



These kind of lenses are consistently among the top sellers.
06-02-2010, 07:11 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Actually, it's because the majority of entry level camera buyers are convinced that zoom lenses are better simply because they zoom.
Could you explain to me where you are getting numbers like truckload?
Or might it have to do with other brands having something like 97% market share, so even if 1 user in 20 buys a prime lens, they are going to sell a lot of them.
Anyway, I'm all for Pentax selling some less expensive lenses after they have a complete lens line, which they don't have at the moment, but Pentax is interested in making money, and cheap lenses don't do that unless they sell in real numbers.
Pentax doesn't have the userbase to support it any longer, which is likely why we saw the 50/1.4 nearly double in price.
Sure, Pentax will even probably lose money if they sell cheap primes...
Please, common. How do you want Pentax to do money with there actual prime lens line up? They don't have a long telephoto for birders, they don't have cheap lens for beginners... They only have high grade old technology very expensive primes that mostly only old Pentax users can afford and want to buy.
The other good thing to sell a cheap prime: when a beginner buy a (Pentax) DSLR camera, as explained by others he usually buy it with kit lenses. And feel very happy with these only lenses. And 2 years later, when he wants to change, he just can jump to another brand since kit lenses, there is with every camera for almost nothing.
Now, if he bought some other lenses, even cheap primes (because everybody on the net say that kit lenses are crap for portraits, and also for indoor, and etc...), he will think twice before to go elsewhere when he will know that this supplement expenses would be lost forever. That's why every (other) brands are so happy to provide (plastic) cheap primes to their nice new costumers. And if they are lucky, this costumers can even enjoy it and want later to buy a new lens. Since they already bought one from the brand of their camera and get happy of that, they would probably feel more comfortable to keep that same brand and not switch to (the bad focussing) Sigma or (the noisy and slow focussing) Tamron.
06-02-2010, 07:42 AM   #118
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That's because every prosumer goes out and buys the fast primes.

But there are 5x as many base consumers who stick with the kit system (as the Amazon #1 selling lens and most of the rest of the lenses attest).

That's why the basic kit system now has 2 lenses. The money is made on the turnover of bodies after a few years. Lens margins are made for Canikon on sales of pro glass, and from lots of small, cheap (non-IS) primes to their vast prosumer market. For Pentax to get the same revenue stream it has no choice but to upscale their primes to get their ROI.

You have it backwards. They need revenues of x per lens. To get that with a small market share, Pentax must charge more per lens. Period. To get cheaper primes, you need to sell more bodies to the prosumer category. They would kill their bottom line with cheap primes. Sad but true.

QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
Amazon.com: Digital Camera Lenses

Number 1 is the Canon 55-250. Number 2 is the Canon 50mm 1.8, number 3 is the Nikon 50mm 1.8. Both of the latter cost less than 125 dollars.

Amazon.de: Objektive - Kamera & Foto: Elektronik

Number 4 is the 35mm from Nikon, number 6 is the 50mm.

Amazon.fr: Objectifs pour reflex - Objectifs: High-tech

Number 2 is the Canon 50mm, the Nikon 50 and 35 follow at 4 and 8.



These kind of lenses are consistently among the top sellers.
06-02-2010, 09:13 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Period. To get cheaper primes, you need to sell more bodies to the prosumer category.
There is no a-priori reason why Pentax only sells lenses to people owning a Pentax body.

In fact, I am really wondering why the smaller players (Sony, Pentax, Olympus if they were 35mm) don't sell lenses into the bigger Canikon market.

Of course, Canikon could respond by cross-selling as well. Which would only strengthen the proposition of the smaller players.

In the end, the arbitrary protection of market segments caused by incompatible mount specifications should go away. Market forces should have eliminated these long ago. That they are still with us means markets don't work as anticipated.


P.S.
There is a small chance that this closed system idea is a Japanese thing. I remember that German system cameras used to be interchangeable (M39, M42 etc.) and still are in the microscope market. Also, C/CS mounts in video cameras and ocular fitting in astro equipment are interchangeable.

It remains to be seen if a closed mount for SLD cameras (aka EVIL) can succeed. There are 4 already (µFT, NX, E-mount, M-series) and they may sink each other

Last edited by falconeye; 06-02-2010 at 09:24 AM.
06-02-2010, 11:08 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
There is no a-priori reason why Pentax only sells lenses to people owning a Pentax body.

In fact, I am really wondering why the smaller players (Sony, Pentax, Olympus if they were 35mm) don't sell lenses into the bigger Canikon market.
For the same reason BMW doesn't sell floor mats for Fords.
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