Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-09-2010, 04:43 AM   #136
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Or maybe you are a victim of the bigger-pixel-is-better-myth?
You need to learn physics...I simply like CCD sensor and good colours.
Bigger pixel always gets more light and bigger sensor = better colours, DR and tonality.
*ist DS was very cool in terms of colours.

My TV set is Thomson 21MF10C and I don't switch it on.


06-09-2010, 04:51 AM   #137
Pentaxian
Moderator Emeritus




Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,648
I completely agree with Ogl on this one. I have a second shooter that bought a 7D. When I got his last wedding shots, I could only use a few. He has good lenses and everything that was stopped down was soft looking. Max decent high ISO was 1600. My K20D image out resolved his by a long shot and the 1600 shots out of the K20D were cleaner. The K20D isn't a great ISO 1600 camera.

After using the camera for 3 months, he was so disappointed with the 7D, he sold it and bought a used 5D that he likes much more and is superior IQ wise in every way. That's a 12MP camera.

Sorry to be blunt but if you think you need 21MP or 18 or 300 whatever on APSc then you need to get off the drugs. You're drinking the marketing cool aide. Hell one of the benchmark cameras is the D700 and it's 12 MP as well. You won't hear owners complaining about the IQ of that camera.
06-09-2010, 05:13 AM   #138
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 8,934
QuoteOriginally posted by netuser Quote
can I be first in line for some of your lens ?
Too late.
06-09-2010, 05:18 AM   #139
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 8,934
QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
I completely agree with Ogl on this one. I have a second shooter that bought a 7D. When I got his last wedding shots, I could only use a few.
That says something about the 7D (or maybe only about this copy of a 7D).

It says nothing about 18MP being reasonable for APS-C or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Sorry to be blunt but if you think you need 21MP or 18 or 300 whatever on APSc then you need to get off the drugs. You're drinking the marketing cool aide.
Sorry Peter, I find that offending. The physics on this question is easy. 18MP or 21MP don't imply worse images than 14.6MP. On the contrary (if done right).

Canon might have had to pull some tricks which didn't help IQ (I mentioned their two green channels approach before which got them into trouble with balancing and cost them a bit of resolution). Independently of whether the 7D has a systemic problem or individual copies are worse off, its performance cannot be construed to argue against >14.6MP sensors.

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Hell one of the benchmark cameras is the D700 and it's 12 MP as well. You won't hear owners complaining about the IQ of that camera.
Be that as it may, converted to APS-C that's only 5MP worth of resolution. I'm fine with anyone who finds that sufficient. I'd want more than that.


Last edited by Class A; 06-09-2010 at 05:23 AM.
06-09-2010, 05:26 AM   #140
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,883
QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Sorry to be blunt but if you think you need 21MP or 18 or 300 whatever on APSc then you need to get off the drugs.
No I don't need it, but I am not afraid of it either.
06-09-2010, 05:29 AM   #141
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,530
"18MP or 21MP don't imply worse images than 14.6MP"

but there is mounting evidence that there is a trade off with APS-C . even the 5D MKII has visible chroma noise at Iso 100.
06-09-2010, 05:32 AM   #142
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 8,934
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
"ven the 5D MKII has visible chroma noise at Iso 100.
And how do you know that got something to do with a high MP count, as opposed to say enabling fast sensor read-out for video and/or high fps?

Also, even if there are currently manufacturing/engineering challenges for higher MP sensors, there are no fundamental problems associated with them.
06-09-2010, 05:33 AM   #143
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 3,262
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
"18MP or 21MP don't imply worse images than 14.6MP"

but there is mounting evidence that there is a trade off with APS-C . even the 5D MKII has visible chroma noise at Iso 100.
Aye. I wonder about the resolution overkill. Are people:

* Regularly printing at billboard sizes?
* In possession of a monitor with 6000x4000 native resolution?

06-09-2010, 05:39 AM   #144
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,530
"And how do you know that got something to do with a high MP count, as opposed to say enabling fast sensor read-out for video and/or high fps?"

because you see the same kind of thing on the current crop Canon Dslrs. Whether they have video or not, the 50D was pushing the limits of image quality in my opinion.


"Also, even if there are currently manufacturing/engineering challenges for higher MP sensors, there are no fundamental problems associated with them."

if Canon hasn't found a way to get around it, there probably isn't one. it could be the limitations of CMOS sensors themselves...time will tell.
06-09-2010, 06:04 AM   #145
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,159
Well, Canon didn't find a way yet to produce images with good textures with APS-C sensor. It has nothing to do with Mpix, it has to do with Canon crap NR.
06-09-2010, 06:31 AM   #146
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,530
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Well, Canon didn't find a way yet to produce images with good textures with APS-C sensor. It has nothing to do with Mpix, it has to do with Canon crap NR.
I suspect the lacking image quality on their latest cameras such as the 7D are a result of the on sensor image noise reduction...this NR is applied to Raw images as well as JPG images - it cannot be completely turned off. not to mention the AA filters they use aren't helping them either.
06-09-2010, 06:52 AM   #147
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,509
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Aye. I wonder about the resolution overkill. Are people:

* In possession of a monitor with 6000x4000 native resolution?
You're forgetting that monitor pixels consist of R, G and B subpixels while camera pixels (except for Foveon sensors) are interpolated from R, G and B pixels. So it's probably closer to the truth to say that you need a 3000x2000 monitor to take advantage of a 24mp image (so each 2x2 image pixels get interpolated to 1 monitor pixel).

I think we'll see 15" laptops with e.g. 4000x2500 screens in just a few years. High resolution screens are finally coming, just look at the newly released iPhone 4G with its 320dpi screen.

But even current high resolution screens may have resolutions of e.g. 2560 x 1600 (e.g. Dell 30"), which means they'll "outresolve" anything below a 16mp camera, IMHO. And the future laptop with the 4000x2500 screen will be a pretty good resolution match for the 645D...
06-09-2010, 07:01 AM   #148
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,883
QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
You're forgetting that monitor pixels consist of R, G and B subpixels while camera pixels (except for Foveon sensors) are interpolated from R, G and B pixels. So it's probably closer to the truth to say that you need a 3000x2000 monitor to take advantage of a 24mp image (so each 2x2 image pixels get interpolated to 1 monitor pixel).
Hm, so you down sample your photos to a quarter of their original pixel count?
06-09-2010, 07:31 AM   #149
Pentaxian
Moderator Emeritus




Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,648
I didn't mean to offend Class A. I'm just scratching my head why this is even important. As has been stated, there is evidence that diffraction issues are showing up in higher MP APSc cameras. There are 2 members of my photo club that bought the 7D. Both got them from different sources at different times and report the same issues. Soft images when stopping down around f8. It's been reported on Canon forums as well.

My K10D is my macro camera and produces a sharper ISO100 image than the K20D can. I can easily see it in prints and on the screen. That may be CCD vs CMOS to a degree as well but I suspect MP has a lot to do with it.

But that being said, I've printed K20D images up to 60" on the long side. The first time I did this, I expected the image would break down and be soft. Nope, sharp as a tack. In fact there were small details I could clearly see that I missed on the monitor.

So my point is, If a 14MP camera can reproduce a sharp 60" image that is clean. What benefit is higher MP? In my book zero.
06-09-2010, 07:42 AM   #150
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,159
QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
So my point is, If a 14MP camera can reproduce a sharp 60" image that is clean. What benefit is higher MP? In my book zero.
Because (it is easy to find some argument when you look for one) you can crop big time. What? I should have used to good lens? Sure, I have money for a good tele... NOT !
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax at PMA 2010 techmulla Pentax News and Rumors 8 04-21-2010 07:02 PM
Pentax Japan finally speaks about the new camera!!!! vitalsax Pentax News and Rumors 8 05-08-2009 03:03 PM
Pentax PMA vievetrick Pentax News and Rumors 11 03-01-2009 10:11 PM
Hiroshi Onada, GM of imaging systems for Pentax Europe speaks... digitalphil Pentax News and Rumors 21 02-02-2008 02:18 PM
No New Pentax DSLR at PMA? RiceHigh Pentax DSLR Discussion 52 02-26-2007 05:05 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:38 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top