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06-08-2010, 06:16 AM   #91
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I dont get this whole debate, every year Mega Pixels increase and image quality improves, that's a simple fact. So why the surprise with 21.1mp APS-C? All the talk about diffraction and other crap, sweet spots etc is tiring?

HOW many of you actually work in CCD/CMOS camera sensor design/engineering/fabrication and especially work for either Sony/Canon/Nikon/Samsung/Kodak/Sigma or anyone else who builds sensors? Unless you do, everything you say is really just partially educated speculation.

I remember many years ago people saying that 1ghz processors were going to be impossible due to a number of crazy reasons.

I also remember someone saying that 640kb was more than enough.

I also remember

06-08-2010, 06:20 AM   #92
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... back on topic

Even though I argued a moment ago that APS-H may well be feasible technically and commercially, this thread is of course about a purported 21MP FF body. I just noticed a DPR thread about a 645D review in a Japanese site. The translated page is here.

This review mentions in passing that:

QuoteQuote:
If the image sensor size equivalent to 35mm, as well as the pixel pitch becomes effective 20-megapixel class.
Here's a thought. Perhaps Kodak are producing both FF and MF sensors for Pentax by using essentially the same process, but dividing the wafer differently. I seem to recall a Pentax representative stating that they managed to obtain much better prices from Kodak by ordering much higher quantities than other MF manufacturers.

The more I think about it, the more sense this strategy makes. Both MF and FF are niche markets, but combining production in this way could result in economies of scale that are not otherwise possible.

So there you have it. The new sensor is indeed 21MP, but it's from Kodak, not Samsung or Sony.
06-08-2010, 06:36 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
Even though I argued a moment ago that APS-H may well be feasible technically and commercially, this thread is of course about a purported 21MP FF body. I just noticed a DPR thread about a 645D review in a Japanese site. The translated page is here.

This review mentions in passing that:



Here's a thought. Perhaps Kodak are producing both FF and MF sensors for Pentax by using essentially the same process, but dividing the wafer differently. I seem to recall a Pentax representative stating that they managed to obtain much better prices from Kodak by ordering much higher quantities than other MF manufacturers.

The more I think about it, the more sense this strategy makes. Both MF and FF are niche markets, but combining production in this way could result in economies of scale that are not otherwise possible.

So there you have it. The new sensor is indeed 21MP, but it's from Kodak, not Samsung or Sony.
Pentax targets officially the wealthy amateur with the 645D, industrialisation of the making allowed by expected sales permits a lower price (which allows in return high number sales) Pentax is currently producing in a month the same number as for total sales of MF backs in France in 2009. So it's not surprising that Kodak made a much smaller price for their sensor.
06-08-2010, 07:03 AM   #94
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With the IQ of the Kodak sensor in the 645 (have you pixel peeped the ISO1600 images?) then I'm all for a FF Kodak sensor based body.

I think the 645 will have a much wider audience than the weathly hobbiest. Fashion shooters, landscape pros etc will look very hard at this body. In fact, If I had the money, I certainly consider it for wedding work but unfortunately weddings don't pay what they used to.

So lets hope they continue with the Kodak sensors if those deliver these types of results and can be used at even higher ISO's

06-08-2010, 07:15 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Pentax targets officially the wealthy amateur with the 645D, industrialisation of the making allowed by expected sales permits a lower price (which allows in return high number sales) Pentax is currently producing in a month the same number as for total sales of MF backs in France in 2009. So it's not surprising that Kodak made a much smaller price for their sensor.
Look at it this way. It seems safe to say that the FF market is somewhat bigger than the MF market. And it's even safer to say that the combined MF and FF market is bigger still!

So if it is indeed technically feasible to produce FF and MF chips off essentially the same process, then you have a greater economy of scale than could be obtained by producing either MF or FF chips alone. And this economy of scale is of course further enhanced by the reduction in development costs.

We have already seen that the 645D re-uses a number of K7 technologies. You could say that my suggestion is that this technology-sharing strategy is somewhat deeper than we previously imagined.
06-08-2010, 07:19 AM   #96
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The only problem I see with this nice idea is that the resulting FF Pentax will not have a video mode (just as the 645D does not have a video mode). I never use the video mode on my K-7 but IMHO Pentax cannot neglect the "indie" part of the market. A video mode is essential on any new DSLR, whether we like it or need it or not. Look at Sony who is not doing very well on the market, thanks to the lack of video mode on their DSLR's.

Sorry guys, this won't happen.
06-08-2010, 07:31 AM   #97
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Also, many look at FF as the way to go to get extreme low light performance. Some will miss the iso 51200

I see the success of K-x being the result of a great set of features for being an entry camera. Only offer (really) great IQ at lower iso in an FF camera will attract too few I'm afraid. Very serious photographers, but too few imo.
06-08-2010, 07:43 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
Look at it this way. It seems safe to say that the FF market is somewhat bigger than the MF market. And it's even safer to say that the combined MF and FF market is bigger still!

So if it is indeed technically feasible to produce FF and MF chips off essentially the same process, then you have a greater economy of scale than could be obtained by producing either MF or FF chips alone. And this economy of scale is of course further enhanced by the reduction in development costs.

We have already seen that the 645D re-uses a number of K7 technologies. You could say that my suggestion is that this technology-sharing strategy is somewhat deeper than we previously imagined.
Maybe. Partially.

FF bodies will be expected to run down to the $2k range or below. MF bodies at the $10k range or above.

For every FF sold, maybe a $300 retained earning. For every MF sold maybe a $2000 retained earning. Plus, your production line is a much smaller capital outlay.

The economy-of-scale only ramps up if the sales volume ratio to MSRP also ramps up. Or you sell a very large # of FF bodies. But we really know the bulk of profits are made on the lenses, so Pentax's FF issue is a quiver of lenses that are new, as legacy glass will not make them the $$$ necessary.


Last edited by Aristophanes; 06-08-2010 at 10:33 AM. Reason: tpyo
06-08-2010, 08:50 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
I think the 645 will have a much wider audience than the weathly hobbiest. Fashion shooters, landscape pros etc will look very hard at this body.
+100. And Ken Rockwell is an ass, but we all know that. I was reading on the FM forums that quite a few fashion photogs were ecstatic at the prospect of wide-frame, multi-point AF, to capture moving models who weren't in the dead centre of the viewfinder. I think that makes it a killer camera, along with the price and weather sealing.

QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
Here's the thing. It would make a lot of sense for Pentax to produce a high-end APS-H body as a transitional standard on the road to affordable FF. There's no need to produce specialised APS-H lenses: such a body would happily accept both FF lenses and the longer APS-C designs.
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if people will see APS-H as a stepping stone or a cop out. If it's priced like a FF camera, it probably won't sell as well.

And, yeah, I think the Kodak sensors look all right - though BSI would be nice. More money for Kodak, which means they go on making Tri-X, as well (my compliments for not being one of those who assume Pentax's next sensor *has* to come from Samsung.)

I'd like to see some new lenses from Pentax, though, even if they're reissues, with sealing and SDM. Save on R&D.
06-08-2010, 11:36 AM   #100
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645 & APS-C, but no FF!

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote

I think the 645 will have a much wider audience than the weathly hobbiest. Fashion shooters, landscape pros etc will look very hard at this body. In fact, If I had the money, I certainly consider it for wedding work but unfortunately weddings don't pay what they used to.

As Peter Zack puts it so well, Pentax seems to be counting on the 645 to regain some professional customers longing to re-use their MF lens. (Personally, I'd love a 645D for my 67 lens, i just can't afford one. I'm not a pro!) From the samples I've seen, the weatherproofed 645D places Pentax amongst the leaders of the pro-priced very-high-res DSLR race, especially for landscape photographers.

However, I don't think Pentax has much to gain in the FF market, they'd be playing catch-up for a long time, be it just because of the lack of lens. I'm sure Pentax factories are furiously designing & producing a new 645 lens line. I doubt they have the time/man power to simultaneously do the same for a FF lens line... A new FF camera would just be inviting us to buy a bunch of Sigmas, which not something Pentax would like to encourage!

For non-poster printing customers like me, a compact yet pro-quality APS-C camera matched with a pro-quality APS-C lens line fits the bill perfectly. Being a P67 owner, i value the fact that the K7 with a limited lens weighs LESS than half a FF Canon/Nikon/Sony with a 24-70 f2.8 "kit" lens attached. If the only difference were 6 or so megapixels, I'd whole-heartedly stick to my favourite brand!

So here's my wish list for the new K7 that's going to be launched at Photokina (can i take that for granted?): better D-range, color accuracy, iso performance and AF. $ spent on a good viewfinder are well spent. I'm happy with 15MPX (pixels sell, i know, have you seen those 5mpx mobile phones ). Is it possible to enable AF during video? I also like the pretty-coloured Kx idea, it seems to make people smile without me having to say CHEEESE! Can I also ask for more class-leading top-notch APS-C lens? I want a 135mm apo-limited!
06-08-2010, 12:09 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by miles Quote
However, I don't think Pentax has much to gain in the FF market, they'd be playing catch-up for a long time, be it just because of the lack of lens. I'm sure Pentax factories are furiously designing & producing a new 645 lens line. I doubt they have the time/man power to simultaneously do the same for a FF lens line... A new FF camera would just be inviting us to buy a bunch of Sigmas, which not something Pentax would like to encourage!
This is spot on reasoning. As much as I would like to see a FF camera, I would rather see Pentax do a few things well than try to do everything but do it poorly (cough*Sony*cough). They need to make this MF thing succeed, and then when they've developed it sufficiently along with improvements and refinements to their APS-C line, they'll be in great position. Pentax currently has some of the best offerings in the areas that they choose to compete (The K-7 and K-x and 645 are all arguably the best cameras in their areas, at least by some criteria). So, it makes sense to capitalize on that, increase in the areas where they are strong, and then when they've got reliable money there they can hit hard in the FF field.

As long as their next camera doesn't sacrifice speed or low-light performance at the altar of resolution (again Sony), then I'll be happy. More resolution is only bad if it makes you compromise elsewhere.
06-08-2010, 12:37 PM   #102
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If Pentax focused on FF lenses from now on, APS-C users would get plenty of useful lenses as well. They work on both types, remember?
06-08-2010, 12:38 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
If it's true, its a good chance for it to be a full frame.
yeah! But at what Cost?

Last edited by music_lover; 07-03-2010 at 02:23 PM.
06-08-2010, 12:48 PM   #104
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Sure, but they don't cost the same or weigh the same... And what happens at the wide end of things?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a full frame camera with a good choice of lens.
But Pentax seems to be hinting in the opposite direction: the FA limiteds are in short stock, and lots of APS-C lens are released.

The only new FF lens release is the 100mm macro (which i admit, in itself is a little confusing).
06-08-2010, 12:54 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by miles Quote
Sure, but they don't cost the same or weigh the same... And what happens at the wide end of things?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a full frame camera with a good choice of lens.
But Pentax seems to be hinting in the opposite direction: the FA limiteds are in short stock, and lots of APS-C lens are released.

The only new FF lens release is the 100mm macro (which i admit, in itself is a little confusing).
The wide end of things has a 12-24 zoom, and two excellent primes. In fact, the wide end of FF will fill up an empty spot in the current APS-C line-up: a prime in the 24-28mm range.

EDIT: and don't forget primes at 85mm and 135mm!
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