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06-09-2010, 07:46 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Agreed but unless Samsung goes back to DSLR big time (and need FF) I don't see them develop and produce a sensor solely for Pentax.
APS-C sensors is a different story altogether, Samsung needs'em anyway.
Oh, definitely. Samsung will be all to happy to make some extra cash on the side by selling sensors they're already manufacturing, but they're unlikely to manufacture special-request sensors for a small company such as Pentax.

If Pentax were to go FF (which I doubt), they'll use a Sony sensor.

...

06-09-2010, 07:48 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
Do not judge potential Pentax IQ by looking at samples from other brands. Pentax have consistently shown they can squeeze better performance out of Sony sensors than either Sony or Nikon can. They've also done this with the K-7 Samsung sensor, which resides in the Samsung NX10 too. The K-7 produces nicer looking images than the NX10 at all ISOs.

We can fault Pentax for a lot of things (and we do!), but they have image processing down to an Art.

...
I agree and that's why it is maybe stupid, certainly misleading to argue that Pentax 18+Mpix would be bad because Canon's is.
06-09-2010, 04:25 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
I happened to be in Japan at the moment, and just yesterday picked up a brochure for the upcoming 645D. Now, on page 2 of this thing, they show two pictures of flower petals and stamens that are cropped out for comparison. One is of course shot by 645D. The interesting thing about the another picture for comparison is that it says "35mm version (21.1MP). They went on to say that at aperture of f/5.6, 645D renders more 3D like and demonstrates softer expression, with rich gradation and beautiful bokeh, and it is as if to convey the smell of the flower itself, or something to that extent. They then put the asterisk on this paragraph, saying that this is based on their own test shots, as of February 2010.
I did pick up the brochure myself.
Certain that it's comparing the pics with a Canon.

From the side-by-side pics, there's a huge difference, and this is what Pentax wants to base the image quality of the 645 on, by comparing it with the "best" SLR of the moment.

It wouldn't make sense for Pentax to point out the inferiority in detail of its own, rumoured, 21mp beast.
06-09-2010, 05:41 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Thank you for sharing that with us. I am sure that you get invited to lots of parties.
QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
Samsung hasn't officially stated they're out of the DSLR game (that I'm aware of) but they most likely are. But that's because they're focusing all their efforts on their NEX MILC line, which uses APS-C sensors. Samsung will continue to develop new sensors and, given their firm commitment to rule the MILC market (and this has been publicly stated), they'll probably get better at it as time goes on. In short: Samsung is a viable provider of APS-C sensors for Pentax.

...
Fine. Don't party near me, though.

06-09-2010, 05:44 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by calsan Quote
Fine. Don't party near me, though.


Hm . . . . . Very P & S like come back.
06-09-2010, 06:15 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
Oh, definitely. Samsung will be all to happy to make some extra cash on the side by selling sensors they're already manufacturing, but they're unlikely to manufacture special-request sensors for a small company such as Pentax.
Here's the thing: in all these companies that make sensors, the Sensor department and the Camera department are like seperate mini-companies within the company. They work together, but they don't control each other directly. If the sensor department thinks they can make a better profit by both supplying the Camera department and working with Pentax on their own sensor development, they will do so (unless corporate thinks it would hurt the camera department and steps in).

QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
Do not judge potential Pentax IQ by looking at samples from other brands. Pentax have consistently shown they can squeeze better performance out of Sony sensors than either Sony or Nikon can. They've also done this with the K-7 Samsung sensor, which resides in the Samsung NX10 too. The K-7 produces nicer looking images than the NX10 at all ISOs.

We can fault Pentax for a lot of things (and we do!), but they have image processing down to an Art.

...
In RAW (where it matters to me) the differences have been a lot smaller. But the main point of my post was that I would rather see the NEX sensor than the older sensor in those cameras. Maybe Pentax could squeeze a little bit extra out of that sensor, but that doesn't change the fact that its output just isn't at the same level.

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs:

I agree and that's why it is maybe stupid, certainly misleading to argue that Pentax 18+Mpix would be bad because Canon's is.
It's also misleading to argue that Canon's is bad. The 18mp 7D sensor is pretty close to class-leading... yeah, the K-x sensor beats it in a few ways, but it's still a fantastic sensor in its own right.
06-09-2010, 07:26 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Hm . . . . . Very P & S like come back.


"Very P&S come back." ????
Is that a quote from Sex and the City?
Anyway, Nubi, you started a thread saying pretty much same thing as my original comment about people who take their Canon 5Ds to the zoo with their kids.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/88336-i-started-rumor.html#post897936

Have you changed your mind about the advantages of FF now? Aspirations of being the world's greatest soccer mum?
06-09-2010, 11:18 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by calsan Quote
"Very P&S come back." ????
Is that a quote from Sex and the City?
Anyway, Nubi, you started a thread saying pretty much same thing as my original comment about people who take their Canon 5Ds to the zoo with their kids.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/88336-i-started-rumor.html#post897936

Have you changed your mind about the advantages of FF now? Aspirations of being the world's greatest soccer mum?



Hm . . . . .


I was not making fun FF on that thread. I wasn't even bagging on it. It just floored me that the guy who carries that much gears knew nothing about Pentax. That was all.

I have always been a proponent of FF, except now that I have seen the pics of 645D, my thinking is changing. I think I am going for 645D.


Many people who buy FF cameras do so not because of all the advantages and bells and whistles. They buy them because they can afford them regardless of how suited or not so suited FF is for their purposes. By your logic, people in most cases do not even need DSLR's. The thing is that what you are saying is probably true. But, in the end, consumers blow their dough any way they want to. That is what consumers do.

And, most of all, we love talking about it. At least I do. That is why I am here, and I figure that is why many other people are here as well.

Sure, it is perfectly within your rights to laugh at people like us, but you don't necessarily have to share that on this particular thread. I just don't think it is needed. That is probably why I am the only dumb ass who is giving you a hard time . . .

I have no aspiration as a photographer. I truly suck. Of all people, I am the one who needs a beast like 645D the very least. My true aspiration lies in becoming the best pediatric intensivist/cardiologist that there ever was . . . . .

06-10-2010, 12:02 AM   #39
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Yes, the 645D clearly is a runaway winner here in terms of IQ, price, and size. it has no clear equal from it's competitors Canon, Nikon and Sony. it is a specialist camera which would certainly used for studio, outdoors for macro, landscape, architectures and landscapes. although it is a lot cheaper than it's MF counterparts, I believe Pentax needs to release a smaller system for the midrange market that would answer their needs to a more general type photography and budget. I'm not sure of the progression of the APS-C system as the FF sensors are getting pretty much cheaper as compared to how they were before. APS-C should had been for entry level market, rather than categorizing or using it for the midrange market. also, if Pentax really meant on not releasing an FF dlsr, I think this might be a risky venture by Pentax on purposely losing the midrange market. there are 2 possible scenarios that might happen here. it's either Pentax had some undisclosed plans on releasing an FF dslr already, or Pentax plans on a new mirrorless EV system with an APS-C sensor. both systems will have the 645D's Kodak CCD's sensor inorder to entice the consumers.
06-10-2010, 02:52 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
Yes, the 645D clearly is a runaway winner here in terms of IQ, price, and size. it has no clear equal from it's competitors Canon, Nikon and Sony. it is a specialist camera which would certainly used for studio, outdoors for macro, landscape, architectures and landscapes. although it is a lot cheaper than it's MF counterparts, I believe Pentax needs to release a smaller system for the midrange market that would answer their needs to a more general type photography and budget. I'm not sure of the progression of the APS-C system as the FF sensors are getting pretty much cheaper as compared to how they were before. APS-C should had been for entry level market, rather than categorizing or using it for the midrange market. also, if Pentax really meant on not releasing an FF dlsr, I think this might be a risky venture by Pentax on purposely losing the midrange market. there are 2 possible scenarios that might happen here. it's either Pentax had some undisclosed plans on releasing an FF dslr already, or Pentax plans on a new mirrorless EV system with an APS-C sensor. both systems will have the 645D's Kodak CCD's sensor inorder to entice the consumers.


I will be enticed enough if the price is around 5 to 6 grand. I hear that eventually that is what the street price is going to be. I don't even mind waiting for a year to 18 months or so, even if meant passing on FF if Pentax ever came out with it.

The thing is that if Pentax keep bagging on FF, then it would almost look silly for them to go ahead with it. But, here we are talking about a different segments of the market; for Pentax to fill the niche of FF wishers, no matter how much a bargain 645D is at 9 grand (which I wholeheartedly agree), this will not do it. When the FF sensors come down in price, even more so than now, would they still stay away from that? Stubbornly sticking to APS-C just do not make sense to me. That sounds almost riskier. Also, I have said this before, but they have not come with a APS-C exclusive lens in a long time. I have read interviews by Pentax engineers in Japanese photography magazine, and in it, he clearly said that "of course they have looked into it." This was about a year ago when K-7 came out, and he went on to say that at that time there was no definite plan.

I guess we will find out in time. I would love to read about what went on after the fact, just to see how clueless we have been.
06-10-2010, 03:20 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
I will be enticed enough if the price is around 5 to 6 grand. I hear that eventually that is what the street price is going to be. I don't even mind waiting for a year to 18 months or so, even if meant passing on FF if Pentax ever came out with it.

The thing is that if Pentax keep bagging on FF, then it would almost look silly for them to go ahead with it. But, here we are talking about a different segments of the market; for Pentax to fill the niche of FF wishers, no matter how much a bargain 645D is at 9 grand (which I wholeheartedly agree), this will not do it. When the FF sensors come down in price, even more so than now, would they still stay away from that? Stubbornly sticking to APS-C just do not make sense to me. That sounds almost riskier. Also, I have said this before, but they have not come with a APS-C exclusive lens in a long time. I have read interviews by Pentax engineers in Japanese photography magazine, and in it, he clearly said that "of course they have looked into it." This was about a year ago when K-7 came out, and he went on to say that at that time there was no definite plan.

I guess we will find out in time. I would love to read about what went on after the fact, just to see how clueless we have been.
well, waiting for 2 years or more doesn't seem that bad, but you also have to consider the cost of MF lenses for the MF. although I'm doubtful that the price of the 645D would drastically decrease in 2-3 years, unless Pentax would release a successor yearly which I believe wont happen.

if the rumored street price is around 5-6k, then I believe that would be the end for the overpriced 1Ds and a certain percentage of the FF dslr market (for those who have 2k spare money) would surely be affected.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 06-10-2010 at 07:42 AM.
06-10-2010, 07:37 AM   #42
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How the rumors are blown; did Falconeye figure it out once again?

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's an interesting bit of information indeed.

Canon 5DmkII is 21.0, not 21.1 MP.
Canon 1Ds mkIII is 21.0, not 21.1 MP. But it was advertized as 21.1 MP.
A 35mm snippet from a 645D is 23.8 MP.

So, it was most likely compared to a Canon 1Ds mkIII. Not quoting the exact competitor is normal tradition in many countries. I guess this includes Japan. I remember to have already seen "A/B/Pentax" comparisons from Pentax indeed.
You know, I am back starring at these two pics, and just noticed something.

These two pictures are completely identical in terms of the angle, the shape of the petals and stamens and their positions in relation to the framing. If I cut one out, it will overlap and superimpose perfectly over another. The only thing that is different is the resolution.

If they took two separate cameras, I am not sure if they can accomplish that. It is obvious that this was taken outside. I am not sure if you can reproduce two identical image, with stamens and petals taking the exact same position. You will have to take one shot with one camera, take it off the tripod, then slap another camera to take another shot. I am really not sure if everything would end up in the exactly the same position, with wind and all. So, as Falconeye mused, could it the snippet of the 645D? Is there a way to crop it so that it will become 21.1 MP? I don't know enough about optics to figure these things out.

I am heading back out to town again tomorrow. I am thinking about grabbing a few of these brochures. Is anyone interested in looking at them? I will mail them to some of you when I get back . . . . . . I can also post the pics too, I suppose.
06-10-2010, 07:44 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
You know, I am back starring at these two pics, and just noticed something.

These two pictures are completely identical in terms of the angle, the shape of the petals and stamens and their positions in relation to the framing. If I cut one out, it will overlap and superimpose perfectly over another. The only thing that is different is the resolution.

If they took two separate cameras, I am not sure if they can accomplish that. It is obvious that this was taken outside. I am not sure if you can reproduce two identical image, with stamens and petals taking the exact same position. You will have to take one shot with one camera, take it off the tripod, then slap another camera to take another shot. I am really not sure if everything would end up in the exactly the same position, with wind and all. So, as Falconeye mused, could it the snippet of the 645D? Is there a way to crop it so that it will become 21.1 MP? I don't know enough about optics to figure these things out.

I am heading back out to town again tomorrow. I am thinking about grabbing a few of these brochures. Is anyone interested in looking at them? I will mail them to some of you when I get back . . . . . . I can also post the pics too, I suppose.
please do so.
06-10-2010, 08:07 AM   #44
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Yes please, Nubi. Thank you.
06-10-2010, 08:12 AM   #45
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I hope this will not blow up in my face. I will not be able to send them to all of you, but you two will get one. I will be back in the states in about 4 days. I will send them out then. PM me with your home address please! Can I at least get some reputation points?
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