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06-11-2010, 07:46 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
I will tell you one thing; when the new the DSLR comes out, many folks here should have no complaints about auto focusing. It is a huge huge leap. I don't AF much, but compared to 645D, K-7 AF is a snail at best.
Don't drive expectations too high. I tried the 645D (pre-release with a DA* 55mm) but was not overwhelmed by the AF which didn't seem any faster than the K-7 IMHO. Otherwise there is a real wow factor with this camera, the ergonomics are top notch for such a big camera, I would use it hand held too not only on tripod.

Now waiting for the prices to drop down, see you in 2020

06-11-2010, 09:39 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Nubi, thanks for sharing your insightful experience. I'm sure you had a great time at Pentax forum

Your AF experience is good to hear. Will be interesting to learn where the progress is coming from (better AF sensor or faster focus motor ...). Did you try it with the new SDM lens or a screw drive lens?

"This is pretty close to pulling a quick one": it means they know that they can't be taken serious, correct?


"this may very well reflect how the company feels about FF. They said that there is no actual plan to release one at the moment.": ok, so still no esteem for FF at some parts of Pentax. But how close are the dudes to Pentax engineering? Would they know if something "is in the bush"?


Oh, your more than welcome. As you have guessed, I had a blast, and some more. It seemed to me that those guys actually had a good time talking with me, as they spent lots of time with me even though there were customers who wanted their sensors cleaned waiting around. I could see it in their eyes. THey were not just being nice. Armed with your info, I think they were impressed that I seemed to know so much about optics even though by and large I was bs-ing my way through it.

The guys at the pentax forum were not engineers. In fact, one guy said to me the R and D guys have been pretty quiet of late. But the way I countered was that the company's direction would really affect how I would go about buying my lenses in the near future, and they understood. In fact, one guy said to me that in his opinion none of DA line up will be adequate for FF, despite your compatibility testing thread. Even DA* 200 and 300 he did not think they would suffice. I did point out that they have not released any DA lenses for a while, and to that he gave a bitter grin. Sure, even if they did know, I do not think that they could have told me obviously. As for the brochure, he said that he would definitely understand if people like yourself thought that it was a stretch, and that there was a better way of presenting that. He just kept nodding. But, the bottom line is that the difference is NOT subtle, and that the camera is worth the price tag. At least this was obvious to my untrained eyes. I figure someone like you with the trained eyes would really be blown away. I really think that this is a cornerstone. 645D I think surpasses any film medium format that Pentas has ever built.

It has everything to do with the sensor pricing, he said. If the camera needs a sensor replacement, they said that it would cost around 5 grand to replace. Then almost in the same breath he mentioned that there is a phone, of all things, that will be released by Fujitsu at the end of the month that has a 13.2 MP camera with ISO capability up to something like 12600, and that stupid thing takes up to 7 frames within 1.5 seconds (gee, almost out performing K-7). The sensor pricing is falling faster than British petro's credibility. The pricing of this camera can become obsolete fairly quickly. They understand that at nearly 10 grand for the body and the lens, it is out of reach of most high end amateurs, and that needs to change, and they thought that in time that it would.

As for AF, it was a new *55/SDM. I do not care what anybody say; this AF is a leap from K-7 although it is just my opinion obviously. This is more of a leap than there was from K20 to K7. He did say that this new technology will show up in later models, no questions about it. At the very center of this showroom there was a flower vase with a tiny red plastic gold fish in it. He told me to use the 645D to focus on that, and grab K-7 and see what happens. Many times K-7 could not lock on immediately. The difference I thought was night and day.

At the end of the day, there may have been nothing new. But, I came away feeling that I really really want to get a hold of this camera, although I am not much of a photographer yet. I may even go far enough to say that selling everything I have now to finance this is not such a stupid idea.

As far as I know, I only get to live once. Life is too short. I really really want one. This really is a fantastic camera. Sure, I have seen pics taken by FF cameras plenty. But I never came away thinking that I need to buy FF at all cost. If one cares truly about learning the art of photography as I know many of you do, and if one is fortunate enough to be able to afford it, I am not sure if there is any reason not to buy it. Call me crazy . . .
06-11-2010, 11:32 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
the bottom line is that the difference is NOT subtle, and that the camera is worth the price tag. At least this was obvious to my untrained eyes. I figure someone like you with the trained eyes would really be blown away. I really think that this is a cornerstone. 645D I think surpasses any film medium format that Pentas has ever built.
That's something I can easily believe. I think future sample photos and comparisons will provide more compelling evidence. I've been blown away by S2 samples and I have no reason to believe that the 645D won't do at least as good.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
The sensor pricing is falling faster than British petro's credibility.
Now, that's fast

But I agree. As I have said on multiple occasions, sensor prices are somewhat arbitrary, not well justified by the silicon process and can come down really quickly if the market forces are strong enough.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
this AF is a leap from K-7 although it is just my opinion obviously.
It is obvious I cannot have an own opinion. I wish I can try this beauty in the foreseaable future myself. But I see a chance that the 645D uses AF sensors with a larger base. With the exception of a few 300+mm lenses, all 645 lenses are f/4 or f/4.5 or better. But that's just a speculation.

In any way, an AF system as good as K7 is already quite a revelation in the MF world and an even better one ... wow

Could be the 645D becomes the tool of reference in the MF world -- despite its relatively low price

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
As far as I know, I only get to live once. Life is too short. I really really want one.
The final word on the exact number of my lifes is still out. But 1 is a common guess

Seriously though, I understand your feeling. There is only one reason not to shop immediately: the probably fast deprecation of the 645D.

In theory, one could always buy what was brand new two years ago. And spend a lot less without loosing anything compared to a person born two years earlier. But somehow, the theory is flawed. It really doesn't feel the same. Which proves how important it is to share the joy of life with others.

So, despite deprecation, it is still a lot cheaper than a Porsche
06-11-2010, 02:27 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
but which other features that you could simply take away from the camera?
It would have to be the sensor, since that's the most expensive part. Suppose someone's able to make a same-sized sensor, maybe with half the pixels (but perhaps with incredible high iso) for just a fraction of the price?

06-11-2010, 03:15 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Don't drive expectations too high. I tried the 645D (pre-release with a DA* 55mm) but was not overwhelmed by the AF which didn't seem any faster than the K-7 IMHO. Otherwise there is a real wow factor with this camera, the ergonomics are top notch for such a big camera, I would use it hand held too not only on tripod.

Now waiting for the prices to drop down, see you in 2020

I agree that I ought to be careful with that. But, I really thought it was much much faster. Perhaps because I was so "wow'ed" by it all that I was fooled into thinking that AF was better. But, the guys at the Pentax Forum also felt that it was an improvement from K-7 (gee, of course they would say that, I guess).

Now, 2020 is just around the corner ! ! ! !
06-11-2010, 03:57 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
It would have to be the sensor, since that's the most expensive part. Suppose someone's able to make a same-sized sensor, maybe with half the pixels (but perhaps with incredible high iso) for just a fraction of the price?
hmmmm...could be. it would cost probably at around $6500 est. $6000 would be pushing it too far IMO. but still, the budget conscious midrange market would still be left without a competitive dslr. the k-x is good for the starter or budget dslr, and the K-7 still falls short of it's FF counterparts. eventhough if Pentax releases a great APS-C K-7 successor, it would be hard-pressed against the competition which have an FF system that a part of the consumer market are demanding. pricing a Pentax APS-C dslr successor cheap will probably entice those who are pretty much satisfied with the sensor size, but would leave those seek a FF without an alternative except to jumpship or buy a separate system that would fulfill their FF needs. it's pretty clear that those who need FF do not only seek FF due to IQ advantage, but be able to use the full FF potential of the specialty lenses. I'm sure people who have lenses, such as the 85, 100, 135 would know what it's like.

a cheaper MF would be a great alternative, but it would cost a leg, an ear, an eye and an arm, to own one. not to mention the MF lenses that are needed. it is simply not affordable. however, I do think that if ever Pentax release such cheaper MF dslr, it would probably simply overshadow a Leica FF and MF combined.
06-11-2010, 04:09 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
hmmmm...could be. it would cost probably at around $6500 est. $6000 would be pushing it too far IMO. but still, the budget conscious midrange market would still be left without a competitive dslr. the k-x is good for the starter or budget dslr, and the K-7 still falls short of it's FF counterparts. eventhough if Pentax releases a great APS-C K-7 successor, it would be hard-pressed against the competition which have an FF system that a part of the consumer market are demanding. pricing a Pentax APS-C dslr successor cheap will probably entice those who are pretty much satisfied with the sensor size, but would leave those seek a FF without an alternative except to jumpship or buy a separate system that would fulfill their FF needs. it's pretty clear that those who need FF do not only seek FF due to IQ advantage, but be able to use the full FF potential of the specialty lenses. I'm sure people who have lenses, such as the 85, 100, 135 would know what it's like.

a cheaper MF would be a great alternative, but it would cost a leg, an ear, an eye and an arm, to own one. not to mention the MF lenses that are needed. it is simply not affordable. however, I do think that if ever Pentax release such cheaper MF dslr, it would probably simply overshadow a Leica FF and MF combined.



I actually asked about lower priced MF at Pentax forum. This one guy said very confidently that there is no such plan at the moment.
06-12-2010, 03:34 AM   #68
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Sounds like the Canon 1Ds Mklll or the 5D Mkll to me.

06-12-2010, 03:07 PM   #69
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I don't see a cheaper 645D, Hoya/Pentax can't fill the demand for the camera at the price it's at. If anything, I see a more expensive MF camera from Pentax possibly coming out. I'm not sure what they could improve upon though.

Too bad Kodak doesn't really have competition in the MF sensor market. A CMOS MF sensor (compared to the CCD Kodak sensor in the current 645D) would allow the camera to do LiveView and Video (with upgraded programming and hardware). Those capabilities would be really awesome.

From the press release the 645D's shutter is only designed for a 50,000 cycle. I'd like to see that raised to 100,000 before I would consider buying one.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
I actually asked about lower priced MF at Pentax forum. This one guy said very confidently that there is no such plan at the moment.
06-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
From the press release the 645D's shutter is only designed for a 50,000 cycle. I'd like to see that raised to 100,000 before I would consider buying one.
I've seen this concern quite a few times.

However, a shutter replacement goes at about $500 ($300 for an APS-C camera). A total loss for an APS-C dSLR but a minor repair for a dMF only.

But I agree. Pentax should assure free shutter repairs up to 100,000 actuations at least.
06-12-2010, 04:38 PM   #71
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QuoteQuote:
I did point out that they have not released any DA lenses for a while, and to that he gave a bitter grin
What is meant by "bitter"? If you mean it as I read it, it suggests cash flow problems rather than a new line of FF's ...
06-12-2010, 05:11 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

I see a chance that the 645D uses AF sensors with a larger base. With the exception of a few 300+mm lenses, all 645 lenses are f/4 or f/4.5 or better. But that's just a speculation.
I had the opportunity to play a bit with a 645D last Monday in Paris at the "Forum de la HD". People said the firmware was not final. AF with DFA645 55mm f/2.8 SDM was quite quick but not that better than the K-7's one in my opinion. AF with FA645 400 mm f/5.6 was a nightmare in comparison: sluggish, hunting, going the wrong way even if close from target, refusing to lock on some surfaces like blond hair (no problem with black hair) and more.

So this observation could reinforce your speculation. Unfortunately I didn't try other FA645 lenses with aperture bigger than f/4 to determine whether this unpleasant behaviour had to do with max. aperture, screw-driven AF or something else.
06-12-2010, 07:38 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
I had the opportunity to play a bit with a 645D last Monday in Paris at the "Forum de la HD". People said the firmware was not final. AF with DFA645 55mm f/2.8 SDM was quite quick but not that better than the K-7's one in my opinion. AF with FA645 400 mm f/5.6 was a nightmare in comparison: sluggish, hunting, going the wrong way even if close from target, refusing to lock on some surfaces like blond hair (no problem with black hair) and more.

So this observation could reinforce your speculation. Unfortunately I didn't try other FA645 lenses with aperture bigger than f/4 to determine whether this unpleasant behaviour had to do with max. aperture, screw-driven AF or something else.

Hm . . . . .



Now two guys against me now. I am getting worried. I am sure that you guys are right.


Here is the deal. Now that I let got of my DA*200 and 300, the only SDM I have is 50-135, and that SDM is busted. Secondly, I don't AF much. So I may not be the best judge of that, I suppose.

I thought it was much faster than my K-7 though. Maybe something is wrong with my K-7 . . . .


Sorry to get you hopes up
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