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06-21-2010, 04:25 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
If we get a dedicated wishlist forum, we also need a dedicated NerdWank forum.

Frankly, the only thing more annoying that wishlists is when the topic devolves in the numerical pissing competitions between various factions of nerds throwing numbers around like monkeys through shit at the zoo, trying to prove some vague, minute, and, ultimately, worthless point that about how...pixel pitch...photons...bifurcation....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sorry, drifted off there.
F-ing priceless!

06-21-2010, 05:18 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by FullertonImages Quote
Everyone acts like above $1300 is FF territory.
Times have changed.

As far as Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, Samsung are concerned, $1400 and above is FF territory now.

Hell, even Leica is under $2000 for its APS-C proposition now...

And as I already said somewhere else here, the Canon 7D offers great value for the action shooting pro or birder. A special market Pentax management already announced not to want to compete in.
06-21-2010, 05:52 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
As far as Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, Samsung are concerned, $1400 and above is FF territory now..
How's that? None of them has a FF camera, for that price. In fact, only Sony is on that market... with a 2000$ camera (street price)
06-21-2010, 06:53 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How's that? None of them has a FF camera, for that price.
If you pls want to read again, I said that for these vendors, all their "smaller than FF" cameras are below $1400. And will continue to be so.

I even go farer to predict that this limit drops to $1000 really soon now (i.e., when FF can be purchased for $1500). Where it hits the high end SLD (aka EVIL) market leaving no room in between.


Last edited by falconeye; 06-21-2010 at 07:02 AM.
06-21-2010, 07:07 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Times have changed.

As far as Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, Samsung are concerned, $1400 and above is FF territory now.
I expect Sony a700 mk2 to be released above this price. However, I also expect it to be really high spec in most aspects except sensor size. Simple FF and high spec aps-c cameras will share the ~$1500 price slot imo.
06-21-2010, 07:21 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Simple FF and high spec aps-c cameras will share the ~$1500 price slot imo.
That's a valid proposition.

But I don't see Pentax competing in the pro spec aps-c camera segment. Around 10fps, high pixel density sensor and fast action AF are a domain Pentax already said they don't want to go after. Maybe Sony will try though. And even then I see a price barrier around $1400.
06-21-2010, 07:34 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by patk Quote
i don't know anything about full frame, but i do know leica put out a small 18 mp full-frame digital rangefinder (no video, no "kit" lens) for about $10k and no one on the leica forums even blinked. the only serious question was image quality. leica lens prices are in the stratosphere and no one blinks. but pentax is supposed to produce a ff camera with all the bells and whistles for under $1500 or else. interesting.

Shooters have their own demands in terms of specs, and this come from what they think they need. Because speculation is free, they demand with no regards to the manufacture's bottom line, and there is nothing wrong with that.

But, from the manufacture's point of view, they start out by focusing on this segment of the market or that, based on traditional spending habit specifically associated with that particular segment.

Leica crowd, which I am familiar with at work, practically have no regards for economic consequences because there just aren't any for them. I think that the last thing Pentax would do is to decide on pricing based on the spending pattern of Leica shooters.

Leica is not stupid either. They do market research. They know what their crowd is willing to spend, and believe it or not, there really is a ceiling to that. So Leica would charge as much as they can get away with, as Pentax would do the same for their segment of the market.

While your point is very valid and with solid line of reasoning, I just don't think it applies to Pentax crowd.
06-21-2010, 07:47 AM   #113
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I think the Pentax crowd is actually quite a diverse bunch. If you watch the lens discussions there are plenty who tend toward the wide angles, those that prefer macro's and again lot of us that make good use of tele's.

In the same vein, there are those Pentax users that don't need a high fps and those of us that could really utilize it.

My current body is a K10D and i was thinking of upgrading to the K7, though I am hopeful a replacement will come out by the end of this year when I should be ready to purchase. I would not be surprised to see a body with 7 or 8fps just looking at the jump from the K20D to the K7. Also would not be surprised to see improvements with AF. While the next body might not have the WOW numbers of Canikon, you can be sure that most of us will really enjoy using the new body (as opposed to the Canikon... subtle dig...)

My two cents worth...

06-21-2010, 08:17 AM   #114
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Falk: But this doesn't mean anything over 1400$ is "FF territory"... to be so, we must have FF cameras there - and I don't see any
"FF territory", for now, is 2000$ and beyond - no matter how cheap the APS-C cameras are. Yes, there is a gap in between (on which no APS-C camera can be sold, even the 7D) - but that's another story.
For now, the most expensive APS-C is 1600$ - street price, with 100$ instant rebate. The D300s is over 1500$ (again, street price); I don't think Canon and Nikon will soon abandon the over 1000$ APS-C DSLR market - an over 500$ drop, no way. And the others... they don't really compete for "the best APS-C DSLR" (best as in: we can ask tons of money on it) market. Sony? Olympus? How old are the A700/E3? Panasonic? Did the had a top-end 4/3 DSLR at all? Samsung has given up, they were only rebranding Pentax cameras, anyway. And Pentax... the K-7, while a very nice camera, is by no means the "best" APS-C camera one can make.
You'll see, the next high-end APS-C DSLR will be well over 1000$, I'm sure of this.

These being said, I would be satisfied with an upgraded K-7 (the K-7 being already a very good camera). I'd also prefer a quieter 5.2 fps shutter/mirror mechanism than a noisier 8fps one; if by any chance Pentax would increase the frame rate, I hope they'll also put a "quiet mode" in there.
06-21-2010, 09:15 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Falk: But this doesn't mean anything over 1400$ is "FF territory"... to be so, we must have FF cameras there
Well, I adopted the term territory for exactly this reason: territory means that it's clear who rules it. It may not necessarily be actually populated.

Territory also means that if somebody else would try to populate it he would fail. I meant the term in exactly the same way.

Currently, FF rules the territory from $1500 to $8000 with its population nearest to its lower boundary at around $2000. So, it clears a region of about 25% below it free of offers.

Currently, the most expensive APSC cameras are Alpha 700, 7D and D300s, selling for $1404 or less (using serious German online offers, VAT deducted).


So, yes, anything above $1400 is FF territory.
06-21-2010, 09:23 AM   #116
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I think a 1500$ "FF" DLSR would also be a failure (as "success" for a company means mostly profit - not just being able to sell cameras). Camera manufacturers must think the same, since they haven't even tried...
I was using bhphotovideo prices, in my previous post. Are German prices cheaper? (please add VAT back, I can't deduct it ).
06-21-2010, 09:50 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by patk Quote
i don't agree that leica is no longer about photography. it continues to attract serious hobbyists and enthusiasts, just as pentax does. perhaps pentax, the erstwhile japanese leica, should look at producing a less-expensive-than-leica ff rangefinder that will permit it to capitalize on its experience and reputation for producing high quality primes. i have no idea if that's possible, but at least it would "be interesting".

it is still about photography but leans more toward status symbol as someone mentioned. Leica is a rare bunch, IMO. much more rarer than Pentax shooters. and with the evolvement of today's camera technology (better lenses, cameras, and post-processing softwares), I believe Leica will be more hard-pressed to be competitive enough to be involved and exist in the camera industry. I don't believe that most photographers, especially professionals that can afford a Leica uses one for their work. more often they uses other DSLR brand. and I believe most of their clients wouldn't even if it's shot with a Leica or not. as for the market that you've mentioned (hobbyists and enthusiasts), it only shows what Leica really is now.
06-21-2010, 09:53 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Are German prices cheaper? (please add VAT back, I can't deduct it ).
Not normally.
Maybe, due to the erratic currency exchange rates, it is a bit cheaper now. Cheapest FF camera (5DmkII) is at $1699 (Alpha 850).

Nobody should quote prices including VAT on an international or US forum. Or ask for it If you were German (or Romanian ) and buy from B&H, you would have to add VAT as well ...

D300s was the most expensive on my list, costs $1520 at B&H and $1404 at Pixxass in Chemnitz (Nikon D300s Gehäuse). Cheapest was at $1357 (http://194.177.130.254/webshopde/shop/redirect.aspx?iNr=116183), still an online dealer with good reputation).

Last edited by falconeye; 06-21-2010 at 09:58 AM.
06-21-2010, 10:56 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think a 1500$ "FF" DLSR would also be a failure
It would sell like hot cakes. Pentax would sell loads of FF lenses. Where is the failure?
06-21-2010, 10:59 AM   #120
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In making a profit.
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