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06-21-2010, 11:10 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In making a profit.
I see that it will not be a high margin camera. But all of us with DA lenses will have to upgrade $$$

06-21-2010, 12:43 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Are you thinking that it will be FF? All of the specs you have mentioned above are great. But, first of all, do we need all that? Especially for someone who already has K-7? I suppose Pentax can try to market it for people with K20D who passed on K-7, because that will be a big enough improvement to shell out some dough. But there I still see a problem in your theory as far as the pricing goes. If APS-C, that kind of pricing will not go so well with many of the existing Pentaxian. Why don't they wait for FF in about a year? I think that Pentax is really in a tight spot. To make the purchase enticing, with all of the specs above, the price has be closer to K-x. Certainly no more than K-7. If they were to place a camera above K-7, I don't think that more bells and whistles without FF will be enticing enough at a price higher than K-7.

Now, if it is FF you are thinking, then it is an entirely a different story here.....
Yes, you are right, if you own a K7, a fully specked K5 APS-C with my suggestions couldn't be priced that high. Maybe not even at $1700.00. It has to priced in the $1400.00 range, (To be a Nikon D300 alternative) and the K7 will stay in the line at just under $1000.00.

A FF K3 then could be priced in around the $2k to $2.5k range, as are the Canikon's.
06-21-2010, 12:48 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
I see that it will not be a high margin camera. But all of us with DA lenses will have to upgrade $$$
Glad I only own one DA lens... But my EX 24-70 is a FF lens (same FOV as the 16-45, but faster), as is my EX 105 and APO 70-300...But, I guess I am hopping for a FF Pentax at some point.
06-21-2010, 01:27 PM   #124
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i think i've convinced myself pentax needs a break-out product that brings in a different kind of customer - fewer penny pinchers (like myself, by the way) and more people with more disposable income. the niche it could fill - parlaying its experience and reputation with top-quality primes - is to produce a ff rangefinder that would fill the gap between zero and the m9's $7k range for say, $2800-$3500. after all, pentax used to be known as the leica of japan, so why not? maybe the 645d will open the door to potential customers with different expectations about pentax.

06-21-2010, 06:01 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by patk Quote
fill the gap between zero and the m9's $7k range for say, $2800-$3500
I don't know if you already played with an M9? Or an M8 which has become rather affordable now.

It's a masterpiece of fine mechanical precision and the precision of focus (although manual) is stunning. Very sharp images. Only feasible with precision calibration of each and every body.

I've seen a report where Leica takes test shots through the viewfinder (of test targets at several different distances) until the focus calibration is really perfect. The rangefinder viewfinder with its mechanical coupling to the focus helix is delicate.

I doubt that it could be done in a cheap factory and if you start to pay serious workers, I doubt that it can be done for significantly less than $2500. Which is 50% of an original Leica and if you charge 50% for a copy cat, Leica will end up winning.


To replace the delicate mechanical rangefinder M-mount solution with an all electronic solution (as has now become possible) would be the path to follow. Which is very close to a FF SLD/EVIL roadmap though ...

Actually, if I were consulting Leica, I'd recommend them to do this: Temporarily maintain the mechanical M-mount rangefinder VF but add an electronic VF (hires OLED) plus fast contrast AF. And make the eyepiece switch between optical and EVF.

Last edited by falconeye; 06-21-2010 at 06:08 PM.
06-22-2010, 02:12 AM   #126
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the closest i have been to any leica camera is my dlux 4, which i know full well is knock-off of a panny, and i am sure i have neither the skill nor the talent to justify getting any closer. i fear i have unintentionally taken this thread off course by my somewhat flip suggestion. except that when i think about it, a pentax style ruggedized rangefinder might really appeal to street shooters and photojournalists, for example. if it did, it would also appeal to street shooter and photojournalist wannabes. i guess one would have to have an idea of how large that potential market might be. and where is the 645d made? surely it has to meet some high quality expectations? ff sounds like a gamble for pentax anyway given the major players in the dslr market who already have an established foothold and the benefit of economies of scale when it comes to ff. just speculating that maybe pentax could benefit by taking its game to a different venue.
06-22-2010, 02:50 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't know if you already played with an M9? Or an M8 which has become rather affordable now.

It's a masterpiece of fine mechanical precision and the precision of focus (although manual) is stunning. Very sharp images. Only feasible with precision calibration of each and every body.

I've seen a report where Leica takes test shots through the viewfinder (of test targets at several different distances) until the focus calibration is really perfect. The rangefinder viewfinder with its mechanical coupling to the focus helix is delicate.

I doubt that it could be done in a cheap factory and if you start to pay serious workers, I doubt that it can be done for significantly less than $2500. Which is 50% of an original Leica and if you charge 50% for a copy cat, Leica will end up winning.


To replace the delicate mechanical rangefinder M-mount solution with an all electronic solution (as has now become possible) would be the path to follow. Which is very close to a FF SLD/EVIL roadmap though ...

Actually, if I were consulting Leica, I'd recommend them to do this: Temporarily maintain the mechanical M-mount rangefinder VF but add an electronic VF (hires OLED) plus fast contrast AF. And make the eyepiece switch between optical and EVF.
2nd hand film Leicas are now quite affordable. You can get an M6 with a 35mm (not always Leica) for about 1000 from a Leica store. That a steal compared to the price of second hand film SLRs.

Now regarding digital range finders, I would love to have an Evil with a M-mount. Calculating the distance with a laser pointer or with a digital telemeter (two "cameras" separated by a known distance) is now easy and would be very efficient. All in all the mechanical coupling would be reduced to minimum, therefore cost cut down.

However, I'm not sure such a camera would be very popular.
06-22-2010, 07:26 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote

Now regarding digital range finders,
We're all waiting for an affordable digital rangefinder. There's always some background chatter about Zeiss Ikon....but still waiting.

06-22-2010, 07:37 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Now regarding digital range finders, I would love to have an Evil with a M-mount.
You could always get the Sony NEX series with an adapter. That's probably as close as you're going to get at this point.
06-27-2010, 07:14 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by C.W Tsorotes Quote
1. Body similar to the MZ-D in size and design, weather sealed.
2. Newest SAFOX 11point as used in the 645D, however algorithms more optimised for fast moving action, ie sports.
3. Sony APS-C sensor.
4. 1/250 x-sync.
5. 7fps continuous shooting.
6. Prime II+
7. Full manual video mode with up to 1080p60 using MJPEG.
8. Dual SD Card slots.

Discuss......
how about the 100% viewfinder of the K-7

Last edited by music_lover; 07-03-2010 at 02:14 PM.
06-27-2010, 07:18 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by patk Quote
the closest i have been to any leica camera is my dlux 4, which i know full well is knock-off of a panny, and i am sure i have neither the skill nor the talent to justify getting any closer. i fear i have unintentionally taken this thread off course by my somewhat flip suggestion. except that when i think about it, a pentax style ruggedized rangefinder might really appeal to street shooters and photojournalists, for example. if it did, it would also appeal to street shooter and photojournalist wannabes. i guess one would have to have an idea of how large that potential market might be. and where is the 645d made? surely it has to meet some high quality expectations? ff sounds like a gamble for pentax anyway given the major players in the dslr market who already have an established foothold and the benefit of economies of scale when it comes to ff. just speculating that maybe pentax could benefit by taking its game to a different venue.
the reason it is a knock off of a Panasonic is because Panasonic-Leica worked together on that Camera. That's at least what I heard

Last edited by music_lover; 07-03-2010 at 02:13 PM.
06-29-2010, 06:01 AM   #132
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There will be probably some limitations. I think the next camera wheter it will be an APS-c or a FF will be carrying the same processor PRIME-II that is in de K-7 K-x and the 645D. So if it's a megepixelmonster or an shotgun in fps it's in need for a good buffer to have some flow in the machine. Also reusing the accu and other futures insight the K-7/645D makes it cheaper to get in production (after all Pentax is just a small firm in camera-land)

- I don't think the PRIME-II can run HD movie 1920x1080 at 60fps, it probably won't go very much more then 30fps. But having it selectable and more controllable in movie would be great.

- I hope it wil run at least 8fps in photography (maybe the samsung sensor of 14,1 mp aps-c) and can take a run of at least 5 seconds (K-7 just holds it's ground for 3 seconds and the K-x just 1 second).

- I like the K-7 body, so a new body design is in no need for me. Dual slots is nice but with a 32GB card it holds about 2000 RAW images.

- A better AF and SR would be great.
06-29-2010, 03:47 PM   #133
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I shoot with a Canon 5D and and Olympus E-3. I have only shot a couple hundred frames with a K-7 and it had a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 lens attached. My opinion is that the K-7 is faster than my 5D, but slower than the E-3. Lenses have a lot to do with AF speed. My 14-35 f/2 hunts a lot in lower light on the E-3, but is good light it is very fast. The 35-100 f/2 is slower to focus but much more consistent in low light. My 5D can be pretty slow to focus with the 85L.

If Pentax speeds up the AF and improves the SR they will have a really competitive camera. IMHO Pentax should work to improve DR more than pushing the ISO.
06-30-2010, 04:31 AM   #134
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Pentax is a niche product. They are specializing in small, weather sealed and robust products. The next pentax dSLR camera, full frame or not, will continue in this niche market. If they make a full frame it will not be a number crusher like we're maybe used to from Canikon. It will be a Full Frame camera at an OK price, awesome picture quality, but only respectable ISO performance, AF-performance, FPS etc etc. BUT, it will be the smallest FF-camera on the market. Why? Because that's what pentax does.
06-30-2010, 05:02 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nimrad Quote
Pentax is a niche product. They are specializing in small, weather sealed and robust products. The next pentax dSLR camera, full frame or not, will continue in this niche market. If they make a full frame it will not be a number crusher like we're maybe used to from Canikon. It will be a Full Frame camera at an OK price, awesome picture quality, but only respectable ISO performance, AF-performance, FPS etc etc. BUT, it will be the smallest FF-camera on the market. Why? Because that's what pentax does.
And that perfectly makes sense! Pentax serves a whole different market (for those who are after ultimate IQ). Pentax is the SAAB of the photographic world
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