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07-15-2010, 06:10 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by fzwo Quote

Yes and no. I think in the long run, we're going to go full EVIL. Even Pro cameras are going to use EVFs. They aren't good enough yet, but they promise benefits such as live histogram, live WB preview, live exposure preview, no mirror blackout, automatic MF magnification, zebra highlight/shadow warning etc. - and they will lose any perceptible lag, color problems, and low resolution. I'm even guessing that pro or semi-pro models will get EVFs and E-mounts (with fully working adaptors for their old mounts) before cheaper mass-market DSLRs will do, because the high-quality EVFs and fast electronics will be expensive in the beginning.

Until then, EVIL cameras will probabl mostly occupy a niche between DSLRs and high-end compacts. This category won't go away, but will blend seamlessly with DSLRs, which will move to the shorter E-mounts.
You sure about that?

An EVF "heads up display" could easily be too much information, and how do you engage in tactile input without dedicated controls?

Basic optical VF's may have one thing going for them" simplicity and accuracy. They use much less power, as in zero. Pro markets would have to see an enormous leap in functionality and quality before they take an EVF substitute for an OVF.

Also, I strongly doubt EVIL will sit in between all DSLR's and high-end compacts. DSLR's can already under-price EVIL's and will continue to do so. Not everyone wants a teeny weeny camera body with sticker upper mini-beer can lens. EVIL is more likely to be midrange price model, with expensive lenses. Until Canikon jump in with force, EVIL be cartel priced rather than commodity priced. And Canikon and Sony (who just released very low-priced entry-level DSLR's) can drop some DSLR prices further. The consumer will pay for the EVIL miniaturization.

07-15-2010, 09:29 AM   #167
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I think some plain old practical items get missed in the better/faster/smaller rush.

Tiny cameras are a PIA to hold. I put a grip on my K20D just to make it comfy.

Light cameras have more shake; heavier cameras are naturally dampened.

Optically, I think FF is a terrific compromise between size, weight, sensor area, lens properties, ovf brightness, etc.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this right, but when I compare images from P&S, APS-C, FF, and MF (the 645D), it's my perception that the compromises are acceptable in the range of APS-C to the 645D's crop, but it's centered optimally somewhere around FF. The lenses get enormous for tele work with MF, and there are some limits of physics that we fight too often at APS-C; worse still with 4/3 and P&S sized sensors.

There is a quality I've seen, esp. with 85mm's on FF for example, that I recently read in a forum post called 'layering', and that FF seems to have an edge in this regard.

Perhaps it's because I don't have any of the Limiteds that I incorrectly long for FF ?

Anyway, for me 4/3's is way too small to be practical. To rely on software for lens corrections and noise reduction is a fools game. I've spent too long in IT (since '76) and I know how fast bit rot creeps into systems and they become 'no longer supported'. Software != Photography.
07-15-2010, 11:52 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You sure about that?

An EVF "heads up display" could easily be too much information, and how do you engage in tactile input without dedicated controls?
The beauty about an EVF is that you can tailor the display exactly to your needs. Trying to put them down, you just gave another point in their favor.

And who said anything about lack of dedicated, tactile controls? There being no mirror in the camera does not imply anything at all about control layout.

Of course, a touchscreen as the rear LCD would be an added value: Touch focus point selection, possibly faster settings changes (if well executed - and only as a supplement, never as a replacement of hardware controls).

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Basic optical VF's may have one thing going for them" simplicity and accuracy. They use much less power, as in zero. Pro markets would have to see an enormous leap in functionality and quality before they take an EVF substitute for an OVF.
Accuracy of EVFs will get there. It will never be full imager resolution, but it doesn't need to. The eye can't resolve that much anyway, and it's not as if today's optical viewfinders are very accurately mounted. They also don't show accurate depth of field, and no white balance, blur or exposure at all. You can make an EVF as bright and as large as you want, without trading off one for the other, and regardless of sensor format.

I don't quite get what you mean by simplicity. Do you mean simple to use (I'll give you that: If it doesn't have any options, it won't need any buttons - of course, an EVF could mimic that, and for most people, the default info layout would probably be good enough, just like today's OVFs)? Or do you mean simple to make? I wouldn't agree with that. Of course, a full-time LiveView camera isn't easy to make, either. But there will come a time when it is easier/cheaper than an electromechanical one, with quality at least on par.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Also, I strongly doubt EVIL will sit in between all DSLR's and high-end compacts. DSLR's can already under-price EVIL's and will continue to do so. Not everyone wants a teeny weeny camera body with sticker upper mini-beer can lens. EVIL is more likely to be midrange price model, with expensive lenses. Until Canikon jump in with force, EVIL be cartel priced rather than commodity priced. And Canikon and Sony (who just released very low-priced entry-level DSLR's) can drop some DSLR prices further. The consumer will pay for the EVIL miniaturization.
Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear here. I didn't mean price. I meant... how to say it... professionality? I think you get what I mean. Today, EVIL cameras are marketed as bridge cameras for the connoisseur, so somewhere above point-and-shoots, above bridge, below most DSLRs. As I said, the distinctions blur. The K-x and competing models aren't exactly marketed to pros.

Of course, there will be a transition period where many DSLRs with mirrors will be cheaper than "DSLRs" with EVFs, especially in the lower DSLR segments. A good EVF will be seen as added value, a "pro" feature like two control dials, good AF-C, etc. It will take time for high-quality EVFs to become cheap enough to become the standard for all DSLRs. But after a while, Leica will be the only brand with good optical viewfinders anymore.

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I think some plain old practical items get missed in the better/faster/smaller rush.

Tiny cameras are a PIA to hold. I put a grip on my K20D just to make it comfy.

Light cameras have more shake; heavier cameras are naturally dampened.
I've always found the K20D too big, somehow. I must admit I have quite small hands for a man, though. The K-7 is almost perfect in size.

Putting an EVF into a camera wouldn't necessarily mean it getting smaller (though it should realistically mean the body getting thinner to make use of a shorter flange distance).

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
Optically, I think FF is a terrific compromise between size, weight, sensor area, lens properties, ovf brightness, etc.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this right, but when I compare images from P&S, APS-C, FF, and MF (the 645D), it's my perception that the compromises are acceptable in the range of APS-C to the 645D's crop, but it's centered optimally somewhere around FF. The lenses get enormous for tele work with MF, and there are some limits of physics that we fight too often at APS-C; worse still with 4/3 and P&S sized sensors.

There is a quality I've seen, esp. with 85mm's on FF for example, that I recently read in a forum post called 'layering', and that FF seems to have an edge in this regard.

Perhaps it's because I don't have any of the Limiteds that I incorrectly long for FF ?

Anyway, for me 4/3's is way too small to be practical. To rely on software for lens corrections and noise reduction is a fools game. I've spent too long in IT (since '76) and I know how fast bit rot creeps into systems and they become 'no longer supported'. Software != Photography.
Absolutely! One big benefit of FF for me would be the possibility to use F/2.8 zooms and get decent background blur. This just can't be done on APS-C. On the other hand, APS-C lenses really are smaller (and lots cheaper, but that's probably just politics). With a shorter flange distance, we could finally enjoy lenses (including wide angles) the size of rangefinder lenses. Though we pentaxians are pretty close to that already

EDIT: Oh my, this turned into my least favourite post: Long-winded point-for-point arguing with excessive inline quoting. Sorry!

Last edited by fzwo; 07-16-2010 at 12:17 AM. Reason: Apology added
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