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06-24-2010, 01:43 PM   #16
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I think there's another way to read this news; small cameras are the new trend. Look at Pentax K7 and Kx and the other small entry level DSLRs and Oly EP2 as examples of that trend. Pentax doing well, and Oly/Panasonic doing well. Different systems - its not a singular EVIL trend, but all cams that are designed small.

Went to a 1 day camera seminar last Sat. with several petite women holding these heavy Nikon cameras, most are D300 i believe. Even my K20 looked small compared to some of these Nikon DSLRs. One gal in her 70's at least who couldn't walk the trail and is stuck with this heavy camera???

Not too impressed with the Oly EP2 and the ISO numbers they talked about. The iso400 picture even looked noisy for such a small pic. This from someone who is taking iso 3200 pics at the local playhouse in some dark scenes.

06-24-2010, 02:09 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
Huh?? Who wants a tiny camera with large interchangeable lenses? Hardly anyone; they'll eventually end up with a similar P&S with a fixed zoom lens - makes more sense. From the data it is obvious that the EVIL's steals customers from P&S, not other interchangable lenses cameras (DSLR's).
An EVIL is a interchangeable camera witthout a decent finder. That is not a plus. All features of an electronic finder can be included in a DSLR without removing the cameras main feature; a state of the art finder that shows the real thing.

Small interchangeable camera systems different for the traditional (D)SLR has been tried before. They all sold well initially, the flopped; ie. APS film SLR's; Pentax Auto 110.
Well put


QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
In Japan, DSLR sales has increased 34.9% year over year in the month of May.

Of significance is that in the last week of May, EVIL sales has almost reached the 30% mark at 29.9% market share.



http://bcnranking.jp/news/1006/100615_17390.html
Interesting that DSLR are seing a lot of newcomers. Guess people feel ready to skip their P&S, and go for a real cam
06-24-2010, 04:15 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
This statement is false for a reasonable definition of "P&S".

P&S generally implies "designed primarily for simple operation". I'd agree for the Sony NEX-5 and NEX-3, but would disagree for the Panasonic GF-1, GH-1, etc.

EVILs are the future and here to stay. Whether Pentax has missed the boat (the period where they could have kept high margins on EVILs and established their own mirrorless system) can still be disputed. I'm thinking yes and they will have to join the Samsung NX, join m43 or become even more niche than before. Only a matter of time.
I absolutely agree.

I got a micro 4/3 camera(G1) for a compact travel set up AND for mounting old manual focus lenses, including lenses that can't be mounted on a DSLR.

This includes brilliant lenses like the Canon FD 50mm F1.4 SSC..... lenses that I can buy for $20.
I also mount lenses like Tokina AT-X 100-300mm F4($40). The arguments that big lenses look silly on micro 4/3, are just silly themselves. Its the result that counts.

To me personally, the key point about micro 4/3 is the flange distance, not the size.
06-24-2010, 06:12 PM   #19
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I believe than Nikon -- if the rumours are true -- will make the best product out of the small camera / big performance approach. They've decided (apparently) to go for even a smaller sensor than the 4/3s one, but larger than one in a typical P&S camera. That translates instantly into smaller lenses, even zooms, and a bit smaller bodies than m4/3s.

Lets compare this scenario with the m4/3s: if Nikon can reduce the size of the lenses for such a system by some 40%, and camera body by some 25%, and install the EVF inside the camera case (no extra add-ons), they have a winner and a complement to their DSLR range (including APS-C), that doesn't cannibalise it, but perfectly complements it. Both Panny and Oly are facing problems now because m4/3 surely does cannibalise their 4/3 DSLR range. Panny has abandoned it already and Oly suffers the most.



But with a smarter thinking, and with just a few small lenses, Nikon can make it a petite, delightfully pocketable system with a bright future that boosts sales to the whole range of Nikon cameras. If I were Pentax, I'd perhaps do the same and follow Nikon -- not an APS-C EVIL (or whatever you want to call it) like Sony did, and Leica flopped with its insane price, but a smaller sensor, smaller body, smaller lenses system approach. So there will still be room for an APS-C camera in the form of a DSLR, and larger (faster) lenses that are more suited for a larger body anyway.


Last edited by Uluru; 06-24-2010 at 06:32 PM.
06-24-2010, 07:11 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I believe than Nikon -- if the rumours are true -- will make the best product out of the small camera / big performance approach. They've decided (apparently) to go for even a smaller sensor than the 4/3s one, but larger than one in a typical P&S camera. That translates instantly into smaller lenses, even zooms, and a bit smaller bodies than m4/3s.

Lets compare this scenario with the m4/3s: if Nikon can reduce the size of the lenses for such a system by some 40%, and camera body by some 25%, and install the EVF inside the camera case (no extra add-ons), they have a winner and a complement to their DSLR range (including APS-C), that doesn't cannibalise it, but perfectly complements it. Both Panny and Oly are facing problems now because m4/3 surely does cannibalise their 4/3 DSLR range. Panny has abandoned it already and Oly suffers the most.

But with a smarter thinking, and with just a few small lenses, Nikon can make it a petite, delightfully pocketable system with a bright future that boosts sales to the whole range of Nikon cameras. If I were Pentax, I'd perhaps do the same and follow Nikon -- not an APS-C EVIL (or whatever you want to call it) like Sony did, and Leica flopped with its insane price, but a smaller sensor, smaller body, smaller lenses system approach. So there will still be room for an APS-C camera in the form of a DSLR, and larger (faster) lenses that are more suited for a larger body anyway.
What's with this acceptance of smaller sensor sizes?

The #1 complaint of amateur photogs is the terrible low-light performance of their cameras. You cannot have smaller sensors and address that problem. Take a tour of the Flickr forums and it is a constant drone. Entire product lines (Fuji) have bent over backwards to try and right this problem as if the Laws of Physics don'y apply because of clever marketing.

You reduce size you challenge IQ. The market for interchangeable lens cameras smaller thanM43 is vanishingly small. There's a zillion eBay junk sellers trying to convince us that every P&S needs a fisheye and WA attachment for $3. And Pentax *is* the most interchangeable lens camera maker bar none, not even Leica.

Industries rarely reach consensus, but when they do, standards stick. 35mm was one, as was JPEG. APS-C has legs as well. Maybe FF will make a major comeback, but what is certain is that it is a highly flexible market and a burst of data from one standard does not an economy make.
06-24-2010, 07:30 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What's with this acceptance of smaller sensor sizes?

The #1 complaint of amateur photogs is the terrible low-light performance of their cameras. You cannot have smaller sensors and address that problem.
You always have a bigger sensor inside a bigger camera for that. And sensor technology does change. Today's sensors are heaps better than 4 yrs ago.
But small form factor / good performance still remains to be the issue, much more than a low-light performance. People venture into m4/3 not because of the low-light performance, but of its smaller form factor / performance benefits.
Big body and big lens are always a big body and a big lens. Also, it doesn't mean we must be condemned to the big systems and c*appy little P&S forever. The middle ground between them is not explored yet, but it should be. It's about giving more choices, rather than savagely curtailing them because of the economy of scale and some imaginary 'puristic' reasons.
06-24-2010, 11:29 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
Huh?? Who wants a tiny camera with large interchangeable lenses? Hardly anyone;
Well, from the Japanese sales data - a lot of people. And yes, you are wrong.

QuoteQuote:
From the data it is obvious that the EVIL's steals customers from P&S, not other interchangable lenses cameras (DSLR's).
I have no idea where you get this idea from.
The different camera market segments are not just defined by capability. One key differentiating factor is the device cost.

P&S are the lowest cost device, majority $200-$300.
So I simply cannot see how a $500-$900 hybrid system can "steal" customers from the low cost camera market segment!

Those 29.9% Japanese users who bought into the hybrid/EVIL system would likely not purchase another entry DSLR like D3000 or K-x. Majority of them have moved up from a P&S - and have elected to go for a EVIL instead of an entry DSLR.

So no matter how much you hate EVIL, or how much "important" DSLR features you are missing, this class of camera does eat into the sales of entry DSLR.

And remember this sales success is achieved WITHOUT the big two. When Canon and Nikon join the party, the sales of EVIL/hybrid would triple or even quadruple.
06-24-2010, 11:32 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I believe than Nikon -- if the rumours are true -- will make the best product out of the small camera / big performance approach. They've decided (apparently) to go for even a smaller sensor than the 4/3s one, but larger than one in a typical P&S camera.
I hope this is not true. Using a tiny sensor would not succeed.
And it's hard to speculate on rumors and patents.... Remember the Nikon MX, anyone?

06-25-2010, 02:17 AM   #24
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I finaly had the opportunity to play with EPL2 and GF1 yesterday.
True, standard lenses are somewhat smaller, but the camera itself is... BULKY

My LX3 is way smaller than those things. I don't see the point, still too big IMO.
06-25-2010, 02:37 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
I hope this is not true. Using a tiny sensor would not succeed...

Being smaller than a 4/3 sensor and bigger than a P&S sensor is not small at all in the world of digital. It's very decent. Make a good ISO 1600 performance with 8-10 MP, smaller package than the m4/3 and lenses smaller that NEX's, and Nikon has a winner.

The trick is to keep the lenses small and the body not much bigger than the best of P&S. In such a way Nikon won't cannibalise their DSLR range, yet they'll be able to innovate and do miracles in a wholly new territory. Sounds like a good plan to me. Customers can only befit from it.

It's something we have in computer industry: we have Mac Pros (equivalent to FF), then iMacs an laptops (equivalent to APS-C), then iPhones (equivalent to P&S). Now we have an all new category in between iPhone and a laptop -- an iPad. In photography terms, that's an all new EVIL system in between P&S camera and the APS-C DSLR.

You may say people don't need iPads because laptops are better. But they're selling them like marshmallows and people love them!
06-25-2010, 04:00 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Well, from the Japanese sales data - a lot of people. And yes, you are wrong.



I have no idea where you get this idea from.
.
From the sales data. EVILS are not stealing customers from DSLR's. Why should they? DSLR's are bought by people who want a serious camera. Serious cameras have viewfinders (believe it or not). EVIL's are bought by people who want the latest toy instead of a P&S. There no reason to think this will change.
06-25-2010, 04:04 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The trick is to keep the lenses small and the body not much bigger than the best of P&S. In such a way Nikon won't cannibalise their DSLR range, yet they'll be able to innovate and do miracles in a wholly new territory. Sounds like a good plan to me. Customers can only befit from it.
The mistake here is to believe the market demand miniture cameras with interchangeable lenses. They don't; such products sells initially when they're hot.
People do want tiny cameras - they are called P&S - but adding many lenses to it doesn't make it tiny anylonger. Having only one do it all lens in order to make the kit tiny makes the whole point with interchangeable lenses go away.
Canon is market leader in DSLR. One of the key issues to their success is that the cameras are so big.
06-25-2010, 04:27 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
You always have a bigger sensor inside a bigger camera for that. And sensor technology does change. Today's sensors are heaps better than 4 yrs ago.
My Fuji F30 easily bests the Panasonic ZR3 I bought my mother last weekend. It's hands down, no contest in low-light. And this after trying 6 brands and about a dozen cams. Even the newer Fuji's were worse.

The sensor's may be better at *some* things (video is the big one), but there are trade-offs.
06-25-2010, 04:53 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Being smaller than a 4/3 sensor and bigger than a P&S sensor is not small at all in the world of digital. It's very decent. Make a good ISO 1600 performance with 8-10 MP, smaller package than the m4/3 and lenses smaller that NEX's, and Nikon has a winner.

The trick is to keep the lenses small and the body not much bigger than the best of P&S. In such a way Nikon won't cannibalise their DSLR range, yet they'll be able to innovate and do miracles in a wholly new territory. Sounds like a good plan to me. Customers can only befit from it.

It's something we have in computer industry: we have Mac Pros (equivalent to FF), then iMacs an laptops (equivalent to APS-C), then iPhones (equivalent to P&S). Now we have an all new category in between iPhone and a laptop -- an iPad. In photography terms, that's an all new EVIL system in between P&S camera and the APS-C DSLR.

You may say people don't need iPads because laptops are better. But they're selling them like marshmallows and people love them!
But they already are cannibalizing their DSLR range!

Right now I can buy a Canon Xs for CAN$359 with 18-55IS lens, or a Nikon D3000 for $409 same kit.]

What's happening? A DSLR body is not expensive to make. Much of the tech was paid off in the 1960's. You're close to seeing commodity pricing that will make the newer EVIL's high-priced, so it will call into question the value issue. DSLR's can compete in price, where EVIL (right now and for the forseeable future) cannot. That's one reason why I think APS-C has legs. It will be very hard to argue against a $450 K-x compared to a $650 Pana GF.

That takes away much of the market ability for EVIL to fill in the price point slot between P&S and DSLR.

In the long run, some DSLR aspects will become even more cost-effective. Take pentaprisms. Right now budget DSLR's use mirrors. Likely, as EVIL comes down ni price, DSLR's will probably move more towards prims over mirrors to consolidate the assembly in just 2 or 3 models. So the consumer will have prism viewfinders at much lower prices.
06-25-2010, 04:57 AM   #30
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I find this whole discussion rather intresting. My biggest complaints about P&S is the ISO performance, and noise in general. My biggest complaint about DSLR is the bluckyness of the equipment. EVIL or micro4/3s is essentially the worst of both worlds. Yes, it's a step up from P&S, but it's still way to bulky. And if you are after image quality (which is why you ditched P&S), why not go all the way. The delta in price doesn't seem to justify taking only half a step.

What I'd really like to see is a P&S that is using a 4/3 sensor, has a 16-135 equivalent lens, is water resistant, and fits into my pocket, so that I can take it skiing, hiking, biking ... without having to have an extra bag. Make the flash detachable, as it's mostly useless anyway. Something really minmal ...
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