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06-25-2010, 05:17 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by BizzaBoy Quote
I find this whole discussion rather intresting. My biggest complaints about P&S is the ISO performance, and noise in general. My biggest complaint about DSLR is the bluckyness of the equipment. EVIL or micro4/3s is essentially the worst of both worlds. Yes, it's a step up from P&S, but it's still way to bulky. And if you are after image quality (which is why you ditched P&S), why not go all the way. The delta in price doesn't seem to justify taking only half a step.
At home my music is piped through a speaker system. When I travel, it's through Sennheiser's. My iPod is lower-fi than my home system.

It's all about compromises. You can compromise in a single package and be unhappy with the ISO, low-light, etc., or you can compromise by owning different packages used inappropriate circumstance.

06-25-2010, 11:27 AM   #32
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I just don't see the lack of a viewfinder as being beneficial. Sure it decreases size somewhat, but not to the point where it is truly pocketable and it does so at considerable expense. Why not just get a bridge camera?
06-25-2010, 01:31 PM   #33
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I wonder how many claiming EVIL being useless have actually used Panasonic G1 or E-P2 cameras. Some respected photographers like Thom Hogan and others are clearly predicting EVIL cameras eating consumer DSLR sales. He even had a presentation at Nikon Headquarters..

Check how many pros have even started shooting weddings or making EVIL bodies as backup instead of 2nd DLSR body as back up.

If you know long time PENTAX photographers like Godfrey has also moved to m4/3

And all these EVILs are 1st generation cameras, in 2/3 generations EVIL will become a better view finder due to its flexibility and advancement in technology. When DSLR first came in the market there was same uproar "sensors" will never match film quality. Well they may not be matching even today, but have virtually killed Film SLRs. and many great film SLR brands.

I see EVIL and 2nd level innovation. First sensor replaced film, now EVIL will replace viewfinder. Weather you will like it or not, technology and marketing dynamics will force this change. Its not wether it will happen or not, its how fast or slow this change will happen. Market is clearly moving towards more usable form than feature this is happening from PCs, laptops ipads to cameras...

The companies that will adapt will survive, that will not will be acquired or dead. it has happened during Film to sensor migration, it will happen VF to EVF migration...
06-25-2010, 01:31 PM   #34
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Part of the reason I'm a Pentax owner is Sony's entry into the ILC market - at the expense of dSLR updates of any relevance. Whoopee, another crippled entry cam to compete against the k-x; Sony loves getting trashed in entry-level, I guess. I gave them most of two years to make the ideal A700 replacement, but NEX and now pellicle designs took the R&D money and ran, leaving them to peddle entry-level cams with alternating features at each intro. Pentax made my ideal 7-series camera instead, just what I asked for - so here I am.

NEX and the next pseudo-Alphas may sell well and be great cams, but for their Alpha base it's doing (and for me, it's done) great damage. May Pentax at least learn from NEX mistakes, and keep a PK mount with no adaptors and sensor-IS. Calling the NEX an Alpha is like calling the Oly PEN an Alpha; I think it can use their lenses w/adaptors too.

06-25-2010, 03:54 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by sagar Quote
I wonder how many claiming EVIL being useless have actually used Panasonic G1 or E-P2 cameras. Some respected photographers like Thom Hogan and others are clearly predicting EVIL cameras eating consumer DSLR sales. He even had a presentation at Nikon Headquarters..

Check how many pros have even started shooting weddings or making EVIL bodies as backup instead of 2nd DLSR body as back up.

If you know long time PENTAX photographers like Godfrey has also moved to m4/3

And all these EVILs are 1st generation cameras, in 2/3 generations EVIL will become a better view finder due to its flexibility and advancement in technology. When DSLR first came in the market there was same uproar "sensors" will never match film quality. Well they may not be matching even today, but have virtually killed Film SLRs. and many great film SLR brands.

I see EVIL and 2nd level innovation. First sensor replaced film, now EVIL will replace viewfinder. Weather you will like it or not, technology and marketing dynamics will force this change. Its not wether it will happen or not, its how fast or slow this change will happen. Market is clearly moving towards more usable form than feature this is happening from PCs, laptops ipads to cameras...

The companies that will adapt will survive, that will not will be acquired or dead. it has happened during Film to sensor migration, it will happen VF to EVF migration...
I agree.

I have a G2 and a GF1. Now ok, I find the G2 (and the G1 before it, which I've used for more than a year) much more usable because of the EVF, but that's personal taste. The G1/GH1/G2 are a pleasure to use, and I'd frame my shots 90% with the EVF, in exactly the same way as a DSLR.
People are fond of lambasting a camera, having never even picked one up, let alone used one!!! I've handled ALL of the micro 4/3 cameras. I'd use my G1/G2 probably 60% of the time with manual focus lenses, and to me, this is the real treasure in the micro 4/3 format!!!!
I've also handled the two Sony NEX cameras, which handle and shoot ok, but the menu interface requires a lot of steps to change modes.


From the first consumer DSLR, to DSLRs overtaking film SLR sales, it was less than 5 years!!!!

If you've ever taken apart an SLR, you will see just how complicated (and expensive) an SLR mirrorbox is. In such a competitive market, the low end DSLRs have to reduce this mirrorbox cost eventually. (In my opinion of course!!!)

Last edited by dnas; 06-25-2010 at 04:35 PM.
06-25-2010, 03:59 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
EVILS are not stealing customers from DSLR's. Why should they? DSLR's are bought by people who want a serious camera. Serious cameras have viewfinders (believe it or not). EVIL's are bought by people who want the latest toy instead of a P&S. There no reason to think this will change.
"Serious cameras"?? No, people upgrading from P&S does not want a "serious camera"! They want better image quality and the flexibility of an interchangeable lens system. Actually, if given a choice, many would opt for a "fun camera", and that's why K-x in its 100 colors variations do so well in Japan.

As for "serious cameras have viewfinders".... seriously, most users upgrading from P&S does not even know what a viewfinder is! Have you ever tried asking a stranger to hold your DSLR to take a family snapshot for you?

EVIL/hyrid is a natural progression for P&S users looking for upgrades. They operate in exactly the same manner and in the same familiar way. And most of them do not have the nostalgic attachment to optical viewfinders from the film days. I personally do not find optical viewfinder being a prerequisite for a "serious camera". Within the next few years, electronic viewfinder/display would be as good if not better than optical ones.

Optical viewfinders may look good for my eyes, but I am not interested in that! I am more interested to know how the sensor sees and captures the image!
06-25-2010, 04:04 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by BizzaBoy Quote
What I'd really like to see is a P&S that is using a 4/3 sensor, has a 16-135 equivalent lens, is water resistant, and fits into my pocket, so that I can take it skiing, hiking, biking ...
Well, the size of this "P&S" would be the same as the EVIL/hyrid with a big lens attached!! And no, it would fit into your pocket, unless you make major compromise in image quality or make a very slow lens. The size of the lens is determined by your sensor size. A 16-135 lens for a 4/3 sensor would be just as big whether it is for a hybrid or for a "P&S"!!!
06-25-2010, 04:23 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
But they already are cannibalizing their DSLR range!

In the long run, some DSLR aspects will become even more cost-effective. Take pentaprisms. Right now budget DSLR's use mirrors. Likely, as EVIL comes down ni price, DSLR's will probably move more towards prims over mirrors to consolidate the assembly in just 2 or 3 models. So the consumer will have prism viewfinders at much lower prices.
Exactly right. Thom Hogan was right too: he and many other sane photographers predicted EVIL will eat low end market of DSLRs.

Those cheapo, low entry DSLRs will be gone because those models compromise the whole DSLR idea -- poor viewfinder, poor ergonomics, cheap plastic, etc. They are made to be cheap, not quality products. That happened because camera makers DID NOT venture into EVIL market immediately and started to innovate there, but were using economies of scale to produce cheap, almost unusable DSLRs that cannibalise their whole range and the DSLR idea in the long run.

That's why I think that both DSLRs and EVILs systems have place in the market, and they don't need to cannibalise each others sales. They can be a complementing markets.

We need DSLRs because you cannot break certain laws of optics -- to achieve a certain optical performance you need a big, fast lens, and you also need a body that is comfortable handling such a lens. EVIL cameras are not best tools for that.

06-25-2010, 08:20 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
From the first consumer DSLR, to DSLRs overtaking film SLR sales, it was less than 5 years!!!!
Misspoken analogy. DSLR's did not put SLR's out of biz. They put film processing labs out of biz.

The D is DSLR actually increased SLR sals to levels not seen in years. Consumer market penetration has been very successful, and very profitable.

I agree that EVIL will be a force, but the DSLR market has never been very large. But its existence is for high IQ, with manual control over photographic technique, and interchangeable lenses to alter FOV etc.

EVIL cannot match all those aspects, not with smaller sensors, and not especially in high-ISO, low light situations. there are other aspects of control due to form factor that EVIL will also struggle with, like tactile feedback. With so much screen and grip, there's little room for a tactile, physical interface.

Will EVIL eat low-end DSLR sales? Only if they match on price/value. That will happen, but it will take time.

I have used the GH1, GF (the new one) and tried the PEN series a little bit. Only with a PEN in the field and the rest in the camera store. In decent light, IQ is great. The worse the light, it goes downhill. The lack of a flash in some models is a sales-killer (and BTW, always has been since Instamatics first put those bulbs on, when versions without bulbs came out, those sales went nowhere; the consumer knew better than some marketing idiot at Kodak). The AF is nowhere near a good as a mid-range DSLR. You put a D5000 and the latest Pen side-by-side and there is no contest. None at all.

They are also not small, but for some they may not exactly be large enough for comfortable, secure use. They are the size of a bridge camera. In many ways, they are the replacement for bridge cameras, at 2-3x the price. I am unconvinced that they will replace all low-end DSLR's, not when I am seeing CAN$350 DSLR kits out there in a Future Shop flyer right in front of me. A big advantage EVIL will have is video with AF lenses. A savvybuyer will now that the DSLR is an optical, photographic system. There's appeal in that in exactly the same way some people buy cars for their engine design or brand, even if it means they are still using it 90% of the time for a trip to the store to get milk.
06-26-2010, 12:40 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You're just painting a company into a deathtrap scenario by arguing that they can join another company's standard and then out-market them.
No, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that without an EVIL system they likely ride the downwards spiral of DSLR market share which is self-reinforcing (less sales <-> less R&D).

Whether it is feasible to join m43 depends on the conditions of joining which neither of us knows (remember it is somewhat of a shared standard, so don't call it a Panasonic standard, Olympus are also playing).

QuoteQuote:
I am actually surprised that Olympus is in bed with them (which may explain why Oly and Panny lenses actually don't work so well on each other's bodies, IS etc.).
Probably because Olympus was in a similar boat as Pentax is now. Partner or die.

QuoteQuote:
You're making it sound like every lens from the DSLR era forthcoming under EVIL/M43 is going to supremely compatible for the ever after
I never claimed that.

QuoteQuote:
The history of photographic companies is those that cheapen their product often lose.
You appear to imply that EVIL is perceived as 'cheap' compared to DSLRs.

QuoteQuote:
Do you have any idea how many new camera systems have failed relative to those that have succeeded? it's probably a deathrate of over 90%.
Which is why joining m43 might make more sense than running and developing its own system.

QuoteQuote:
There's market data showing that the EVIL market has limits to its appeal for many consumers.
lol why? And so do DSLRs and P&Ss.

EVILs will do everything that DSLRs do in a smaller and less expensive package. EVFs will be better than OVFs (not in resolution, but in brightness and DOF preview that will outweigh that) and CDAF will get good enough even for sports shooting. Ergonomics is a matter of design. There is nothing intrinsically advantageous about DSLRs except for legacy lens systems (which lose AF on EVILs).

QuoteQuote:
It will surge, then settle, then it will have to compete. I am not sure that small sensors can compete for many, high-margin consumers.
First, 4/3 isn't that small. Second, EVIL does not equate 4/3. We see enough APSC EVILs and will see FF EVILs soonish.
06-26-2010, 12:47 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
All features of an electronic finder can be included in a DSLR without removing the cameras main feature; a state of the art finder that shows the real thing.
How do you include DOF preview?

EVFs are already more usable than entry-level penta-mirror OVFs which are too dark. And you don't need to use the viewfinder, you can use the LCD just fine although you add some hand shake.
06-26-2010, 12:56 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by BizzaBoy Quote
I find this whole discussion rather intresting. My biggest complaints about P&S is the ISO performance, and noise in general. My biggest complaint about DSLR is the bluckyness of the equipment. EVIL or micro4/3s is essentially the worst of both worlds. Yes, it's a step up from P&S, but it's still way to bulky. And if you are after image quality (which is why you ditched P&S), why not go all the way. The delta in price doesn't seem to justify taking only half a step.
lol that kinda like the glass is half full/empty argument

To me m43 is the best of both worlds. I get nearly DSLR IQ (although I don't do much indoors photography, mostly landscapes on a small tripod), but in a carrying package 1/2 the weight of a comparable DSLR kit and with decent ergonomics (the first month I was missing the VF though).
06-26-2010, 01:02 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I agree that EVIL will be a force, but the DSLR market has never been very large. But its existence is for high IQ, with manual control over photographic technique, and interchangeable lenses to alter FOV etc.

EVIL cannot match all those aspects, not with smaller sensors, and not especially in high-ISO, low light situations. there are other aspects of control due to form factor that EVIL will also struggle with, like tactile feedback. With so much screen and grip, there's little room for a tactile, physical interface.
Actually, EVIL can match those aspects. There is no reason why APSC EVILs should have worse IQ than APSC DSLRs. And ergonomics is a trade-off which is subjective - I'd rather carry my GF1 than a Canon 1Ds brick as smaller buttons is a lesser evil than heavy weight and large size (at least for me).
06-26-2010, 04:11 AM   #44
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The problem for Pentax is that none of their lenses are worth anything on an EVIL micro four thirds camera. Sure, they can fit fine with an adapter, but the small primes wouldn't auto focus, due to the lack of an in body motor. I don't see them releasing a whole new system, with new lenses.

Funny as well to compare the GF1 to a 1Ds. It depends entirely on what you are shooting. A 1Ds is not a carry around camera for family snap shots, but it will kill the GF1 in any respect (other than size). The better comparison would be a kx with a kit. Both small cameras, but the kx with an optical viewfinder, faster auto focus, better high iso, and 200 dollars cheaper. I know which I would choose at this point.

Most people who get EVIL cameras are just interested in small. If that is your main criteria, then go for it. On the other hand, at this point, anyone who does significant research will likely end up with a dSLR.
06-26-2010, 04:49 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Actually, EVIL can match those aspects. There is no reason why APSC EVILs should have worse IQ than APSC DSLRs. And ergonomics is a trade-off which is subjective - I'd rather carry my GF1 than a Canon 1Ds brick as smaller buttons is a lesser evil than heavy weight and large size (at least for me).
The argument being made was pretty much "join M43 or die because an APS-C mount would be a dead end."

AF of DA series lenses is a must for any Pentax EVIL or the company would destroy its current user base. Pentax has no muscle to out-market the M43 boys, so they cannot play in that small sector. Pentax needs to leverage as much of its installed base as possible, keep their high IQ APS-C (and maybe, eventually FF) standard, and develop a complementary system. Pentax needs an EVIL for *THEIR* customers.
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