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06-30-2010, 03:41 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I'm curious to see how Panasonic will pull off a 3x zoom in a pocket camera covering a 4/3's sensor. The only way I can think of is they'll have to use something like an f/4.5-5.6 28-85mm lens. If that is the case I have zero interest in it. I sometimes feel restricted using f/2.8 zooms, anything slower is worthless to me. I'd much rather have a simple old 50mm f/2 (or preferably f/1.4) then any slow standard zoom. I've got legs, I don't mind using them.

There are certain things that stop micro 4/3 getting the lens closer to the sensor when the camera is turned off. The flange is 20mm in front of the sensor so the lens assembly needs to be around this distance from the sensor when it's ready to shoot.

In the Panasonic micro 4/3 cameras, the shutter assembly is around 10mm behind the lens mount, and the sensor/filter is around 5mm behind the shutter.

If Panasonic use an electronic shutter, then they could recess the 3x zoom in this new rumored camera by around 15mm. (they could do this in a regular micro 4/3 camera as well, with a special ultraslim pancake, by recessing the elements into the camera body)

A Panasonic lens similar to the Olympus Digital M.Zuiko 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 that "folds" to a travel size of around 40mm, could instead fold partly into the body when not being used.(like a lot of P&S cameras)

So I think this new rumored Panasonic could end up with a 3x zoom lens that protrudes maybe 20mm in front of the body, even with a 4/3 sized sensor!!

06-30-2010, 05:15 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
If Panasonic use an electronic shutter, then they could recess the 3x zoom in this new rumored camera by around 15mm.
But global shutter micro 4/3 sensor does not exist. Even though there are rumors, its rumored release is not imminent. I suppose Panasonic can surprise us all by pulling one off out of the blue, though it is not very likely.
06-30-2010, 10:10 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
But global shutter micro 4/3 sensor does not exist. Even though there are rumors, its rumored release is not imminent. I suppose Panasonic can surprise us all by pulling one off out of the blue, though it is not very likely.
I guess that may be the case....

If they can rearrange the shutter, so that the lens can recess 10-12mm into the body, a 3x zoom camera with a 4/3 sensor could still be quite slim.
07-01-2010, 08:56 AM   #79
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I didn't think about a global shutter. I've read that Panasonic has been working on one ever since the first G1, but last I read they were still a ways off. Hopefully they have it worked out. No mechanical shutter = true 1/2000th flash sync with virtually any strobe/trigger I choose. Plus it sounds like they have a Contax G2-esque optical view finder for it. I would prefer an EVF, but I'm just happy they haven't totally ignored the fact that people like eye level view finders. Plus, the latest rumor says it will have a 24mm-XX lens starting at f/2. That will be quite the little camera if this is true:

Olympus and Panasonic rumors Blog Archive (FT4) More news about the next Panasonic camera with FourThirds sensor


Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 07-01-2010 at 09:03 AM.
07-08-2010, 12:19 PM   #80
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Looks like Nikon has noticed the EVIL market:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-08/nikon-plans-new-concept-slr-camera-...mura-says.html
07-08-2010, 03:41 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Fully agree with this.



I even prefer the wacky viewfinder on my old Olympus 35DC.

One thing that I've noticed about the u4/3 camerasthey're turning up in the used camera shops in big ways. I was in Map camera the other day and saw two whole cabinets full of them, far more than anything else they had in used stock. I wonder if this is a matter of the current bodies and/or results not meeting people's expectations. One way or another, they must be selling well. Here's one of the cabinets.
Yes, I've noticed quite a few of them around Tokyo, second hand as well.
The cheapest I saw (and in fact bought it for my brother) was a Panasonic G1 for only 17,800 yen (about $200 USD) It was in perfect condition, including everythign except a lens and the box. Actually, it looked unused!!!
07-08-2010, 03:57 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote

It's something they cannot ignore!!!! The sales figures are out for June, and mirrorless has jumped to 32.5% in June, in Japan. (almost 1/3 of all sales!!!!)

So for the first 6 months of the year, interchangeable lens cameras market share:

Nikon 34.0% (2009, 31.3%)
Canon 31.4% (2009, 39.1%)
Panasonic 10.9% (2009, 8.7%)
Hoya (Pentax) 7.9% (2009, 6.4%)
Olympus 7.7% (2009, 6.6%)
Sony 7.5% (2009, 7.7%)

Taking into account the 35% increase in total interchangeable lens camera sales, these are the approximate sales increase for the first half of 2010 compared with all of 2009:

Nikon +47%
Canon +8%
Panasonic +69%
Hoya (Pentax) +65%
Olympus +58%
Sony +31%

It's clear that all six have increased sales. However, Canon is lagging behind, and has actually contibuted very little to these increases.

Last edited by dnas; 07-08-2010 at 05:19 PM.
07-08-2010, 05:38 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
Yes, I've noticed quite a few of them around Tokyo, second hand as well.
The cheapest I saw (and in fact bought it for my brother) was a Panasonic G1 for only 17,800 yen (about $200 USD) It was in perfect condition, including everythign except a lens and the box. Actually, it looked unused!!!
Nice! Love this city's used camera market. The Japanese really look after their stuff, I have no qualms at all about buying used gear here. I understand it's the same for cars.

07-08-2010, 05:45 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
It's something they cannot ignore!!!! The sales figures are out for June, and mirrorless has jumped to 32.5% in June, in Japan. (almost 1/3 of all sales!!!!)

So for the first 6 months of the year, interchangeable lens cameras market share:

Nikon 34.0% (2009, 31.3%)
Canon 31.4% (2009, 39.1%)
Panasonic 10.9% (2009, 8.7%)
Hoya (Pentax) 7.9% (2009, 6.4%)
Olympus 7.7% (2009, 6.6%)
Sony 7.5% (2009, 7.7%)

Taking into account the 35% increase in total interchangeable lens camera sales, these are the approximate sales increase for the first half of 2010 compared with all of 2009:

Nikon +47%
Canon +8%
Panasonic +69%
Hoya (Pentax) +65%
Olympus +58%
Sony +31%

It's clear that all six have increased sales. However, Canon is lagging behind, and has actually contibuted very little to these increases.
Gotta hand it to Panasonic; for a relative newcomer they are taking a real lead in this industry. To my mind Nikon's jumping in late with a similar product doesn't impress me much. I hope that Pentax has noticed the methods (innovation, attractive products, good pricing--at least here in Japan) and (continues to) apply similar thinking to their own product set.
07-08-2010, 05:49 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Nice! Love this city's used camera market. The Japanese really look after their stuff, I have no qualms at all about buying used gear here. I understand it's the same for cars.

Yes, second hand cars can be very cheap too!!

I'll have to take a look in Map Camera at the micro 4/3 gear.... I haven't been in there for a while!!!
07-16-2010, 01:23 PM   #86
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June sales chart in Japan

NEX came in 2nd & 8th for the month of June in Japan:

Code:
1 Nikon 	D90		14.6%
2 Sony NEX-5 11.1%
3 Canon EOS Kiss X4 10.9%
4 Canon EOS Kiss X3 8.1%
5 Nikon D5000 7.5%
6 Nikon D3000 6.9%
7 Olympus E-PL1 5.9%
8 Sony NEX-3 5.3%
9 HOYA PENTAX Kx 4.4%
10 Panasonic LUMIX GF1 4.1%
Mirrorless cameras totaled 32.5% for the month of June.
NEX sales would obviously drop a bit after the initial peak, but this is a strong showing, one of the better debut for non-Canikon cameras.
And K-x continues its expected slow decline.

http://bcnranking.jp/news/1007/100716_17667.html
07-16-2010, 04:31 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
It's something they cannot ignore!!!! The sales figures are out for June, and mirrorless has jumped to 32.5% in June, in Japan. (almost 1/3 of all sales!!!!).
There are lies, damned lies and statistics; we do not know where these customers comes from. As DSLR sales are increasing, and Pentax DSLR's as well, there are no particular reasons for Pentax to be particularly alarmed or interested from this data alone. Sony's EVIL cameras are most likely stealing customers from their P&S's.
07-16-2010, 04:41 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
NEX came in 2nd & 8th for the month of June in Japan:
I've noticed that the NEX5 gets a lot of attention. I was at an event this week with a lot of creative types in attendance. One fellow had his new NEX5 with one of the current Voigtlander MF 40mm lenses on an adapter. It was passed around between five or six photographers and really wowed all these guys who'd lugged DSLR's to the event. One photojournalist commented that for a small camera the responsiveness was getting quite close to what he needed in his professional work.
07-17-2010, 09:30 AM - 1 Like   #89
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A point is being overlooked...

I know that Japan's camera sales data is easily available and therefore often gets referenced in the forums, but the Japanese market "trends" do not the global "trends" equal. The Japanese have long been enamored with miniature versions of fill-in-the-blank, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the EVIL market is a good deal bigger there than elsewhere. If your impression of the popularity of EVIL/Micro 4/3 or whatever is based strictly on Japanese sales figures, you might as well be pi$$ing in the wind.

I think Pentax should avoid the EVIL market. It lacks the economies of scale and electronics concentration that the EVIL market requires more of. A Pentax EVIL product is just going to be another Johnny-come-lately also-ran in the EVIL market at this point, especially since they have to source so much of the components from outside sources. They should focus (no pun intended) on getting a FF dSLR to market before what's left of their customer base gets whittled down any further by Nikon/Canon defections, while a perfect niche still exists that Pentax can readily exploit (smaller form factor body with better viewfinder than competitors) with little in the way of things they haven't done before in terms of technology or components. For anyone who thinks micro 4/3 or EVIL in general is so great, why not just buy one that already exists? It's not as if you're going to have any less "new" equipment to buy if Pentax makes it as opposed to Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or whoever, since there isn't any current Pentax glass specifically made for those cameras anyway, and since adapters will undoubtedly be available (in fact, they have in some cases already been announced) to mount your existing Pentax glass to them if that is your intention.

As for EVILs displacing optical viewfinders, I don't think so. The electronic viewfinders are horrid (I already get enough eye strain looking at computer screens, don't need to hold one right up to my eye lol), and Live View is useless in bright light, especially when you're wearing polarizing sunglasses. I agree that APS-C viewfinders suck, which is exactly why the time has come (given the sensor price difference shrinkage and the sensor price being the only real reason for an APS-C dSLR to begin with) to move to 24x36 sensor dSLRs.
07-17-2010, 05:41 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I know that Japan's camera sales data is easily available and therefore often gets referenced in the forums, but the Japanese market "trends" do not the global "trends" equal.
Perhaps, but the market leaders are all Japanese, and Japanese manufacturing firms, by and large, got where they got by setting the pace in their respective industries. It's been said that Japanese firms today retain the mentality that what works in Japan is going to work in the rest of the world .. because that thinking is what got them to the position of global dominance that they enjoy today. Maybe that will change if some outside competitor can mount an effective challenge, but so far the only outside (Samsung) seems content to follow the lead of the Japanese manufacturers.

As for full frame .. I've seen the latest EVF from Epson and I can tell you that they're a huge improvement over anything I've looked at on the market. And that's early 2010 technology. Within two years who knows where they (and others) will be. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before someone puts out a line of APS-C DSLR's with a new mount that's designed around the platform and that puts a FF-sized EVF in place of the APS-C sized pentaprism. There's plenty of conjecture that this is why Sony's recently introduced a new mount.

And such a camera would be pretty impressive:
+ video capable
+ live view
+ smallish body and lenses
+ large viewfinder
+ free of old mechanical constraints

With all of the goodies they pack into DSLR's today I don't think the FF platform's ever going to have significant appeal to the mass market. The cameras are just too big and complex. My brother owns a FF DSLR. He's 6'3" and big. And he finds the thing too heavy to carry around. And at the same event where everyone was wowed by the NEX5, it took two of us (with a combined 30-40 years of SLR experience) five minutes to sort out how to set the exposure compensation on a friend's FF Canon--waaaay too many buttons, dials and menu options.

I think Hoya's on the right track with their DSLR's. They make attractive cameras that produce great results. If they're keen on augmenting their DSLR & MF line-up, they should be looking at making some usable P&S cameras to build on the likes of the S90 or G11 or the Sigma DPx rather than getting tangled into the FF (non-)market.
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