[Votesh]

I don't see why people that want pro gear, and aren't satisfied with Pentax cameras would stay with Pentax. If you want what the D3 or 1DS Mark IV offer, why not get one. Pentax offers niche products that don't compare to some products offered by other manufacturers. That's just the reality of the situation. Pentax cameras are fine for some. If they aren't fine for you there are many other options.

Whiners are no better than apologists. If Pentax cameras don't do it for you then why are you wasting your time with inferior products?

We seem to get attacked by the zealots whenever we point that out.

[Edvinas]

Pentax always tries (and usually succeeds) at being different, and they have tacked towards small weather-selaed cameras. My $10.00 says the new body will be full-frame, 20 or so megapixel, EVIL and weather sealed, and like Nikon will accept aps-c lenses by automatically cropping. This will allow users to use their DA lenses, will keep the body very small in comparison, make video easier with less shake and also gets rid of mirror-related issues. As others have said, this will probably cost a bit more, but many of us are willing to pay for these sorts of features.

Full-frame - YES
20 megapixel - NO
EVIL - NO

Would Pentax release 12-15 megapixel full-frame, K20D sized (FF requires larger body, right?), K-7 style DSLR I would be camping in front of Pentax store to get one on it's release day

[Edvinas]

I don't see why people that want pro gear, and aren't satisfied with Pentax cameras would stay with Pentax. If you want what the D3 or 1DS Mark IV offer, why not get one. Pentax offers niche products that don't compare to some products offered by other manufacturers. That's just the reality of the situation. Pentax cameras are fine for some. If they aren't fine for you there are many other options.

Whiners are no better than apologists. If Pentax cameras don't do it for you then why are you wasting your time with inferior products?

One word answer: LENSES.

You can't mount Pentax Limited primes on other system bodies...

[Adam]

I definitely Pentax will be moving forward with its next release, as it has with the 645D. They seem to be picking up some speed and are finally back on the right track marketing-wise, as their K-x sales have indicated

Adam
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[Votesh]

Actually you can. With loss of some feature and possible requirement to modify either the camera or the lens.

What good is a great lens if you have to use it on a terrible camera? And do you really think that the best lenses from Canon and Nikon aren't almost completely up to the task of matching the best Pentax glass?

One word answer: LENSES.

You can't mount Pentax Limited primes on other system bodies...

[Aristophanes]

Full-frame - YES
20 megapixel - NO
EVIL - NO

Would Pentax release 12-15 megapixel full-frame, K20D sized (FF requires larger body, right?), K-7 style DSLR I would be camping in front of Pentax store to get one on it's release day

If you see Pentax FF it will have at least, and likely 21+ MP's so it can crop effectively using DA lenses (like Nikon does).

You will not see an EVIL FF for years and any EVIL APS-C would cannibalize their mid- to high-end sales (above K-x to K-7).

It's about price points.

The idea that EVIL replaces low-end DSLR's is simply wrong. The price point they come in at is between $600 and $1,000. That does not look to change for awhile, especially with such expensive glass.

[Kunzite]

Actually you can. With loss of some feature and possible requirement to modify either the camera or the lens.

What good is a great lens if you have to use it on a terrible camera? And do you really think that the best lenses from Canon and Nikon aren't almost completely up to the task of matching the best Pentax glass?

Yes, with the loss of:
- open aperture metering
- aperture control from the camera body (the adapter itself must be able to change the aperture, for lenses with no aperture ring)
- autofocus
- multi-segment metering and pre-flash metering
I'm not sure if there is any camera that can use in-body stabilization with Pentax lenses. If not, you'd lose that as well.

And btw, you don't have to use these lenses on a terrible camera; you would normally use a Pentax camera.

Aristophanes, I'd be surprised if the "FF" DSLR market won't completely move past the 2x-ish MP "barrier" (let's not forget - there is only one camera below).

[Votesh]

I'm not the one saying Pentax cameras are terrible. There are others that have referred to them as "the bottom of the barrel" if I'm not mistaken. I am personally satisfied with my lenses, and my Pentax film and digital SLRs.

The thing is, there are plenty of choices. If you want to use Pentax glass, but current Pentax bodies are too pedestrian for you, you can. Even with the loss of features and functions, the part of the lens that should matter most will remain unchanged.
If Pentax cameras are so limiting to some people, they could also leave the brand completely, and probably find glass that is just as, if not more capable than Pentax equivalents.

For those wanting Pentax to make a pro spec camera along the lines of what Canon and Nikon offer, I would bet it's not going to happen. They haven't really released a camera that can be considered pro grade in about 30 years, and I doubt they will now. They offer perfectly capable cameras that can do as much, or more, than most people require, but for those that are limited so thoroughly by the camera, I seen no reason to stick with Pentax. At least not as their only system. Keep the Pentax glass and a Pentax DSLR or 2 around for those times when the severe limitations of the system won't hamper their photography. Shoot with a camera, from another company, that isn't from the bottom of the barrel when their Pentax gear just won't cut it.

Yes, with the loss of:
- open aperture metering
- aperture control from the camera body (the adapter itself must be able to change the aperture, for lenses with no aperture ring)
- autofocus
- multi-segment metering and pre-flash metering
I'm not sure if there is any camera that can use in-body stabilization with Pentax lenses. If not, you'd lose that as well.

And btw, you don't have to use these lenses on a terrible camera; you would normally use a Pentax camera.

[Gimbal]

What's an EVIL camera with a mirror - a DSLR?

No, it's a DSLR with a combined optical and electronic viewfinder. Select between oldschool OVF, or OVF with info superimposed from electronic viewfinder or mirror up and EVIL mode for ultrahigh frame rates with contrast focus and all that stuff.

[Aristophanes]

Aristophanes, I'd be surprised if the "FF" DSLR market won't completely move past the 2x-ish MP "barrier" (let's not forget - there is only one camera below).

It's the D700 effect. It's sold extremely well for Nikon. The high ISO capabilities of the D700 have changed the thinking somewhat to the point that Nikon may only bump its MP's up modestly (14MP?).

If there is market divergence, it may be along these lines. Low MP/high ISO models vs high-res/lower ISO models.

Canikon may like this as it makes for increased sales. Pentax hasn't got that option. The D700 is a benchmark camera and a near instant classic in photography.

[Kunzite]

Votesh: OK, I understand and I mostly agree with you (well, if we're talking exclusively about the small and the even smaller formats ). I wouldn't regularly use modern K-mount lenses on anything other than a K-mount camera, though - for the reasons specified.

Aristophanes: but the Canon 5DMkII is also selling quite well. Maybe part of the D700 success is that it's the only affordable Nikon "full frame"?
I doubt there will be another sub-20MP "full frame" DSLR, but we'll see.

[Wheatfield]

I don't see why people that want pro gear, and aren't satisfied with Pentax cameras would stay with Pentax. If you want what the D3 or 1DS Mark IV offer, why not get one. Pentax offers niche products that don't compare to some products offered by other manufacturers. That's just the reality of the situation. Pentax cameras are fine for some. If they aren't fine for you there are many other options.

Whiners are no better than apologists. If Pentax cameras don't do it for you then why are you wasting your time with inferior products?

Some people have been invested in Pentax in a fairly large way for a fairly large time.
Changing systems would be a huge financial compromise, but quite honestly, this is a secondary consideration.
I happen to like the look that Pentax lenses give me more than what I see from the lenses from other makers.
For me, this trumps all.

Considering that Pentax is only really lacking in terms of AF performance, and given the very wide chasm between Pentax and state of the art, why is it unreasonable to demand better?

Why is asking for better cameras and indicating a willingness to pay for it whining?

[Aristophanes]

Votesh: OK, I understand and I mostly agree with you (well, if we're talking exclusively about the small and the even smaller formats ). I wouldn't regularly use modern K-mount lenses on anything other than a K-mount camera, though - for the reasons specified.

Aristophanes: but the Canon 5DMkII is also selling quite well. Maybe part of the D700 success is that it's the only affordable Nikon "full frame"?
I doubt there will be another sub-20MP "full frame" DSLR, but we'll see.

Hard to tell, but hard to argue with the success of the 12 MP D700.

You have to realize what a game-changing gamble that camera was, coming out so soon on the heels of the D3 and D300. It immediately trumped the ISO game. And it did so with a low-density sensor.

As for Canon, the D700 ate a couple of % points from Canon which has been the big loser in the market share race lately. A lot of Canon shooters look with envy at the D700. A lot of print adherents are perfectly happy with un-cropped FF prints at 12MP, so this cam has a very loyal following there as well.

For Pentax, they have an issue about getting the most out of the ISO but will require a sensor size large enough for DA lenses to achieve decent resolution on a crop. At that point, Pentax is not going to be able to put out a D700 competitor. We'll have to see what kind of sensor capacity allows for the D700's ISO performance at higher MP's, and see if Pentax issues FF, exactly where they straddle that line. If they can get an FF sensor into the K-7 body...

[Votesh]

Yippee, they've found a niche. Somewhat better than every one else's bottom feeders, and blown out of the water by their big guns.

This hyperbole is why I would call it whining. Up until your last post you don't mention that the only thing you think Pentax is really lacking in is AF performance.

If you really need state of the art AF why not buy into another system for that purpose alone. Maybe sell some of your Pentax stuff and buy something that will get the job done as you need it to be done, and then keep the rest of your Pentax gear for when AF speed or tracking ability, or whatever it is you demand that Pentax improve, is important.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think Pentax will ever be state of the art when it comes to AF.

[tumbleguts]

Besides, everyone who has already bought saddles for their flying ponies would have to then buy new saddles, since the flying pony saddles would not completely cover the unicorn's larger sitting area. In order for Pentax to launch Unicorns, they would also have to spend the R&D money on a whole new line of saddles and accessories to fit the larger format. I just don't think they can handle that kind of undertaking at the moment. But at the same time, Pros demand the performance of a Unicorn, and sooner of later Pentax will have to give them what they need, otherwise they will leave the brand and go use the Canikorns.

And therein lies the brilliance of this stratagy. By choosing unicorns, Pentax force its user base to pony up and buy new unicorn saddles - which, of course, means more money for Pentax. The initial R&D costs of the new unicorn saddles and associated accessories would pale in comparision to the eventual increased sales and profit margins this tactic would generate. It's not just unicorn saddles, it's unicorn shoes, unicorn horn ring flashes, copious amounts of unicorn rainbow fairy dust, etc. You state that you don't think Pentax are up to it. I disagree. In fact, I think Pentax are doomed if they stay with flying ponies and those outdated saddles. Unicorns are so obviously the future... Why can't Pentax see that?
To be honest, I'm only interested in unicorns for the larger, higher viewing perspective. But, you are correct. The longer Pentax procrastinates the transistion to unicorns and continues using those inferior flying ponies, the more Pentax riders we WILL see leaving the brand. And that's a fact.