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05-12-2011, 09:40 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgrune Quote
To those "pixel counters" photographers, I say what we need is LESS pixels, not more. More pixels creates noise, and image degradation.
from the practical standpoint every new generation of sensors has more pixel and less noise... certainly they can make it even less noisy ___per pixel___ w/ bigger wells and less packed circuitry... but so far so good... plus nobody prevents things like on die binning or downsizing in postprocessing

05-20-2011, 12:43 AM   #77
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fresh news for the Sigma SD1 posted at dpreview >>>>> Sigma announces SD1 pricing and availability: Digital Photography Review

as I initially suspected, this does look like made to compete against MF systems, including the 645D. I guess we have a battle in our hands.
05-20-2011, 02:10 AM   #78
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Maybe, maybe not for two reasons:

1/ We still dunno how the sensor behaves (may be very good, may be crap)
2/ Foveon still is seen as a 'weird' (for bad reasons IMO) and may not get traction, just because it is Foveon.

I do not agree with those reasons but well... market is what it is.
05-20-2011, 06:29 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
fresh news for the Sigma SD1 posted at dpreview >>>>> Sigma announces SD1 pricing and availability: Digital Photography Review

as I initially suspected, this does look like made to compete against MF systems, including the 645D. I guess we have a battle in our hands.
Seems like those who run Sigma now believe in their own marketing department's statements instead of their own brains (or engineers). The price is a joke, and a good one

Compared to medium format:
  • Bad colors (bad color separation + problem seeing the colors the way us humans do due to not using organic filters, the silicon medium as filtering device)
  • Low resolution (medium format do not have the low pass filter either, thus Foveon "resolution advantage" is almost zero - resolution is a function of luminance)
  • Low DR (in high quality imagery)
Compared to contemporary APS-C competition:
  • Likely a bit higher resolution (due to the low pass filter of the competition)
  • Inferior colors (see above)
  • Noisier - > lower DR (the color poor separation increases noise - they probaböly have CDS to take case of reset noise)
  • Likely inferior AF, AE and other features to much of the competition
  • Fewer lenses and accessories
  • A bit pricier


05-20-2011, 06:54 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
as I initially suspected, this does look like made to compete against MF systems, including the 645D. I guess we have a battle in our hands.
it's marketing trick and absolutely rubbish.
it's APS-C camera with equivalent of Bayer resolution close to 28-30 MP. and nothing else. specs are rather ordinary. not better than K-5 or D7000.
05-20-2011, 07:48 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aku Ankka Quote
Seems like those who run Sigma now believe in their own marketing department's statements instead of their own brains (or engineers). The price is a joke, and a good one

Compared to medium format:
  • Bad colors (bad color separation + problem seeing the colors the way us humans do due to not using organic filters, the silicon medium as filtering device)
  • Low resolution (medium format do not have the low pass filter either, thus Foveon "resolution advantage" is almost zero - resolution is a function of luminance)
  • Low DR (in high quality imagery)
Compared to contemporary APS-C competition:
  • Likely a bit higher resolution (due to the low pass filter of the competition)
  • Inferior colors (see above)
  • Noisier - > lower DR (the color poor separation increases noise - they probaböly have CDS to take case of reset noise)
  • Likely inferior AF, AE and other features to much of the competition
  • Fewer lenses and accessories
  • A bit pricier
with respect to MF comparison:

I'm not sure why would you assume that the 3 layer silicon concept would produce bad colors if it captures every color detail more accurately. as was explained, the foveon sensor absorbs the RGB info per pixel as opposed to the Bayer sensor's 1 color info per pixel.

also, there is no proof yet nor sample that would support that the SD1 would have a lower resolution. again as mentioned, the Foveon sensor has the ability to capture 3 color info per pixel as opposed to 1 color info per pixel by a Bayer sensor.

lastly, the SD1 hasn't been released yet so the poor dynamic range premature conclusion is not even feasible nor has any bearing.

in comparison with APS-C or FF:

same argument or reasons as mentioned on the MF comparison, except for the price where I would agree that it is more out of reach.
05-20-2011, 07:49 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
it's marketing trick and absolutely rubbish.
it's APS-C camera with equivalent of Bayer resolution close to 28-30 MP. and nothing else. specs are rather ordinary. not better than K-5 or D7000.
we'll have to wait and see for that one. the only thing that is a disappointment however is the price.
05-20-2011, 08:31 AM   #83
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Sigma SD1 - Ready For Prime Time

Interesting view from LL

Don't forget - Canon and Nikon will launch new FF cameras this year. Pentax can easy put two PRIME II and 60 MP sensor and offer 645D-II.

Sony will show new APS-C high-end camera A77 and new FF body.
Samsung made new 18 MP super-pooper APS-C sensor with 4K video.

Leica has plans to launch M10 with new CCD sensor next year.


Last edited by ogl; 05-20-2011 at 08:38 AM.
05-20-2011, 09:16 AM   #84
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I'm flabbergasted. If they want to price a camera that high, they shouldn't tell people at Photokina a year before that it will be 1/5 of that price.

Sub $2000 last year, almost $10000 this year...ridiculous. Sigh, I was really hoping Sigma would strike gold this year; instead they're putting out a camera that I expect only a handful (literally) will buy.
05-20-2011, 09:23 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffshaddix Quote
I'm flabbergasted. If they want to price a camera that high, they shouldn't tell people at Photokina a year before that it will be 1/5 of that price.

Sub $2000 last year, almost $10000 this year...ridiculous. Sigh, I was really hoping Sigma would strike gold this year; instead they're putting out a camera that I expect only a handful (literally) will buy.
I feel the same way. just when I was about to invest in this system, suddenly they drop this bomb and blow everyone out of oblivion. guess the Sigma glasses that I were hoping to buy would end up on probably a K-mount. :ugh:
05-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I feel the same way. just when I was about to invest in this system, suddenly they drop this bomb and blow everyone out of oblivion. guess the Sigma glasses that I were hoping to buy would end up on probably a K-mount. :ugh:
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Foveon look, and I was hoping this camera would push the brand such that they could develop a nice camera (not just a nice sensor). IMO Sigma should sell their current cameras at a loss, with the expectation of lens sales evening the gap. Seems to me that's how you build market share (Microsoft and XBOX/XBOX360 case in point).

I can only think of two other options for them: make their cameras use an interchangable mount (good luck getting Canikon to agree to that), or merge with an existing camera manufacturer. I still have a faint hope that Sigma and Pentax will merge, or at least work together in camera development (there were hints of this with the shared 77 segment AE sensor and similar mount). My perfect camera would be a K5 with a Foveon sensor, but I digress.

We'll see what happens when the dust settles. Considering that Carl Rytterfalk (imo the most influential Sigma user) is just as taken aback as we are, I expect we haven't seen the last of Sigma marketing. Who knows, maybe they pushed the price so high such that people would talk about it on a MF level, then slash the price in half or more and glow in the publicity. Backhanded, yes, effective, who knows...
05-20-2011, 01:04 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
with respect to MF comparison:

I'm not sure why would you assume that the 3 layer silicon concept would produce bad colors if it captures every color detail more accurately. as was explained, the foveon sensor absorbs the RGB info per pixel as opposed to the Bayer sensor's 1 color info per pixel.

also, there is no proof yet nor sample that would support that the SD1 would have a lower resolution. again as mentioned, the Foveon sensor has the ability to capture 3 color info per pixel as opposed to 1 color info per pixel by a Bayer sensor.
First, color separation done the Foveon way is extremely lousy regarding accuracy. The sensor relies on the photon penetration depth probabilities and by nature creates very low color separation. This causes increased noise. And this lowers the DR. Also, I specifically mentioned DR in high quality imaging. The massive sensor size advantage allows for far larger full well capacity for the MF, allowing far superior image quality over the areas where photon shot noise dominates sensor generated noise.

Second, resolution is a function of luminance, not chrominance. Without the anti-alias filter Bayer sensors lose only something like 10% resolution against a black-and white sensor (or Foveon). Demosaicig does not lose much resolution at all. If the MF cameras had the low pass filter, the differencre would naturally be greater.

Interistingly, if the patent 20100155576 describes the Foveon sensor used in this camera, it does not have 3*15 million photosites as advertised, but 15 million blue photosites and 3.8 million green and red photosites. Of course it is possible that this patent does not describe this sensor, but I've not seen any recent other (sensor) patents from Sigma either.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
lastly, the SD1 hasn't been released yet so the poor dynamic range premature conclusion is not even feasible nor has any bearing.
Plenty of the technology is known and how it influenced the DR also. Like that the poor color separation demands agressive color matrixing and this leads to increased noise.

Also, I did not say it has poor dynamic range. Just inferior to MF under certain conditions. Against the best APS-C (the Sony sensor in the K5 and D7000) it will be inferior for several reasons. If you insist, I'll go through them.
05-20-2011, 01:10 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aku Ankka Quote
Also, I did not say it has poor dynamic range. Just inferior to MF under certain conditions. Against the best APS-C (the Sony sensor in the K5 and D7000) it will be inferior for several reasons. If you insist, I'll go through them.
On the topic of IQ and DR, I've been scrutinizing this image and I'm thinking that the K-5 could likely do better on both counts. I have some K-5 studio images that I took a few days ago to compare, but without the RAW's from both sides it's likely impossible to draw any sound conclusions.

05-20-2011, 01:14 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
it's marketing trick and absolutely rubbish.
it's APS-C camera with equivalent of Bayer resolution close to 28-30 MP. and nothing else. specs are rather ordinary. not better than K-5 or D7000.
If we take out the blur filter from regular Bayer cameras and do the comparison, the difference between them, Foveon and a monochrome imager is quite neglible, in the ballpark of -10% resolution for the Bayer. (And also the Foveon would have a tiny, even more neglible disadvantage against the monochrome sensor due to relatively large crosstalk in the vertical pixel construction.)

The reason why Bayer-cameras often seem to underperform against a Foveon at the pixel level when it comes to resolution is threefold - first, the AA-flter does it's job and this is quite significant. Then the raw-conversion (or jpg output) is lacking in capture sharpening (and usually not done with optimal demosaicing), again quite significant, and finally the Foveon false detail beyod nyquist is often mistaken for detail. (I do admit, that this false detail can look pleasant.)
05-20-2011, 02:03 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
On the topic of IQ and DR, I've been scrutinizing this image and I'm thinking that the K-5 could likely do better on both counts. I have some K-5 studio images that I took a few days ago to compare, but without the RAW's from both sides it's likely impossible to draw any sound conclusions.
I think that photo is a bad example, the focus is on the hair with some whack lighting.

I think these images does a better job showcasing the sensor:


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