The Foveon X3 Sensor

Emacs · 04-27-2011, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Pompous Moronox

The resolution is very low due to the low pixel count. Also the bottom layers are less sharp than the top one. The red one especially can be bad.

Stop reading after this. The BS

**fs999** · 04-29-2011, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

not Pentax, but Sony Semiconductor (!= Sony Imaging)... and wait for the next generation of FF sensors to put the crop where it belongs again (as the current generation of FF sensors are 2-3 years old designs).

But 6 months ago nobody thought it would be possible to beat FF... So I can tell you : let's see next K...

deejjjaaaa · 04-29-2011, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Emacs

Stop reading after this. The BS

not exactly - for example photon that will be absorbed by the "red" layer can enter the surface of one photosite at certain angles and be in the end absorbed by that "red" layer in another photosite, just because the relative sizes of the absorbing layers ... not that it is so noticeable for you, but it is happening... and resolution wise only diehard fanboys will claim that 4.6x3mp will beat 12mp bayer and current cameras (excluding oddities like Fuji or Ricoh) are really 16mp-18mp+ generation... certainly Foveon has an advantage of being more crisp @ 100% because you do not do any demosaicking, but resolution wise it belongs to 8-10mp bayer of the days long (in digital terms) gone.

deejjjaaaa · 04-29-2011, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by fs999

But 6 months ago nobody thought it would be possible to beat FF... So I can tell you : let's see next K...

but it has nothing to do w/ Pentax... except may be that they managed not to waste what Sony Semiconductor was able to accomplish and what Sony Semiconductor might as well accomplish in their next FF sensor unless they will quit FF market (but then Nikon is also not bad, 12mp FF sensors were their own).

Pompous Moronox · 04-29-2011, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by stillshunter

Pompous, have you actually experienced a Foveon sensor? I mean for more than a month or so, not 30 minutes in a camera store or a weekend with a friend's unit, or via some really robust research on the web.

With all due respect, it's really tedious to hear folks rubbish the Sigma cameras either based on specifications, reviews or a casual handling. I say, own one for at least a month and then tell me about how much you prefer your Bayer!

How about laws of physics? Tired of them too? Would they change is I held the camera for an extended period of time? I don't think you show much respect in spite of making hte "with all due respect" statement, when you imply that I rubbish Sigma based on specs or reviews or such. I just tell facts based on the design of the Foveon sensor and the laws of physics. I do not rubbish Sigma, nor Foveon. But the fact is that the today's Foveon sensor is downright awful compared to the most modern APS-C sensors.

The next generation sensor on the other hand will be much improved. There will be some colour related issues, but resolution will skyrocket and noise levels will probably go down worth at least 1-2 stops at the base ISO, possbily 3. Is this paragraph also rubbishing Sigma? Or could it be that you're just a bit emotional and unobjective about this issue?

**fs999** · 05-02-2011, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

but it has nothing to do w/ Pentax... except may be that they managed not to waste what Sony Semiconductor was able to accomplish and what Sony Semiconductor might as well accomplish in their next FF sensor unless they will quit FF market (but then Nikon is also not bad, 12mp FF sensors were their own).

That's not true, you can see the example of the K-5 sensor compared to the D7000 sensor and Sony A580 (the same sensor)...

Dxo Mark compare

Coeurdechene · 05-02-2011, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by jeffshaddix

Too bad the mounts aren't compatible with a simple adapter.

The sigma mount is a spinoff of the k mount...saw a thread about using sigma SD lenses on a pentax body.

About the discussion..the foveon seems like a big shift on the way the sensor is built and may, provided it does not sink under economic hardship, surprise. The SD1 seems like an impressive beast..we'll see it's performance when it is finally delivered.
I'm really curious to what the foveon will be able to do with some more years and resources on development....CCD is like 30 years old, foveon is prety young...i sure hope Sigma will not drop it.

stanleyk · 05-02-2011, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Coeurdechene

The sigma mount is a spinoff of the k mount...saw a thread about using sigma SD lenses on a pentax body.

About the discussion..the foveon seems like a big shift on the way the sensor is built and may, provided it does not sink under economic hardship, surprise. The SD1 seems like an impressive beast..we'll see it's performance when it is finally delivered.
I'm really curious to what the foveon will be able to do with some more years and resources on development....CCD is like 30 years old, foveon is prety young...i sure hope Sigma will not drop it.

You might find this interesting:

Sigma SD1 leaflet and new sample shot.. | Rytterfalk Fotography

I am in all likelihood getting an SD1. I thoroughly enjoy the DP1 and 2.

deejjjaaaa · 05-02-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by fs999

That's not true, you can see the example of the K-5 sensor compared to the D7000 sensor and Sony A580 (the same sensor)...

Dxo Mark compare

it is true - the differences between K5 and D7000 are miniscule (and D7000 unlike K5 either doesn't do NR for raw data @ high ISOs or Nikon does it more skillfully) and as for Sony A580 - do not mix Sony Imaging (which makes cameras) w/ Sony Semiconductor (which makes sensors)... Sony Imaging traditionally does something odd w/ Sony Semiconductor's sensors... albeit not always wrong - for example A850/A900 were w/ better CFAs (stronger color separation), instead of better high ISO performance of D3x

Pentaxor · 05-04-2011, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by stanleyk

You might find this interesting:

Sigma SD1 leaflet and new sample shot.. | Rytterfalk Fotography

I am in all likelihood getting an SD1. I thoroughly enjoy the DP1 and 2.

can you wait til August/September? that is when the SD1 is supposed to be available on the market, along with the other new lenses. also, the time where other camera competitors would most likely release their own. atleast you could decided on what you really want.

stanleyk · 05-04-2011, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

can you wait til August/September? that is when the SD1 is supposed to be available on the market, along with the other new lenses. also, the time where other camera competitors would most likely release their own. atleast you could decided on what you really want.

I'm pretty set on it. I am very happy with the DP series. I do a lot of B/W and the files from those cameras make really great B/W conversions. Admittedly they can be a bit maddening to use.

That said I'm pretty old and started doing photography with a K1000 and a 28/50mm combo and 100 speed film so it's not all that different.

I find the Sigma's to be great cameras for people who started with manual film cameras. If you started with a DSLR I can see how they would be a huge headache. Actually they can be a headache even if you are old and started with film cameras. But sometimes that's half the fun/challenge.

I'm very happy with the K5 and will continue to use Pentax. I'm just not interested in Full Frame cameras and find the K5 with the 31-43-77 + 100mm macro to be pretty much all I need. I will probably skip the next Pentax body since the K5 is to my way of thinking a really good camera. With the Sigma I'm going to get the 8-16 (which I also have in Pentax mount), the 30mm and probably the 70 and I'll be set.

BTW- The Jupiter 9 in quite an incredible lens!

But what the heck, I'm a big M4/3 fan so what do I know....

Pentaxor · 05-04-2011, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by stanleyk

I'm pretty set on it. I am very happy with the DP series. I do a lot of B/W and the files from those cameras make really great B/W conversions. Admittedly they can be a bit maddening to use.

That said I'm pretty old and started doing photography with a K1000 and a 28/50mm combo and 100 speed film so it's not all that different.

I find the Sigma's to be great cameras for people who started with manual film cameras. If you started with a DSLR I can see how they would be a huge headache. Actually they can be a headache even if you are old and started with film cameras. But sometimes that's half the fun/challenge.

I'm very happy with the K5 and will continue to use Pentax. I'm just not interested in Full Frame cameras and find the K5 with the 31-43-77 + 100mm macro to be pretty much all I need. I will probably skip the next Pentax body since the K5 is to my way of thinking a really good camera. With the Sigma I'm going to get the 8-16 (which I also have in Pentax mount), the 30mm and probably the 70 and I'll be set.

BTW- The Jupiter 9 in quite an incredible lens!

But what the heck, I'm a big M4/3 fan so what do I know....

I don't have the DP series, although I was considering one for pocket size travel and cadid but the focal length didn't fit my criteria. also considered the GXR. I skipped the K-5 because I'm pretty contented with the K-7 and would rather wait for something of real value o an upgrade for my use.

and Yes, the J-9 is really a beautiful lens as well.

the only m4/3 camera that has really impressed me is the GH1 although the GH2 is a real step up and would be a better investment for a long time. also, it's a real threat that finally m4/3 have a real fast lens, in the Nokton 25/.95 . too bad it's still not AF but is worth the money for those dedicated m4/3 users.

robgrune · 05-10-2011, 08:56 PM

Discussion should be separated between camera body and imager. I think the Foveon has great potential, if Sigma can quickly R&D it t overcome all the weaknesses noted above. R&D speed is critical if Sigma wants to capture market share.

To those "pixel counters" photographers, I say what we need is LESS pixels, not more. More pixels creates noise, and image degradation. Less pixels means each is larger, and so can capture more data with less noise. But less also means more heat, because more Voltage is needed to power a larger pixel - and heat kills imagers quickly. This is why Foveon is intriguing - the potential for one imager having only one pixel to capture all data (just like film!).

Ya know, I think film might make a comeback. The more I compare my film images to my digital ones, the more I realise how superior film is for image quality. Digital has its conveniences, but still not the image quality. The Leica S2 is getting closer up to say 10x15in prints, but how many of us can afford $30k for one body with one lens?

thibs · 05-11-2011, 12:20 AM

Film isalso so much more fun IMO.
Just bought a view camera

uccemebug · 05-11-2011, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by robgrune

Ya know, I think film might make a comeback.

It's started long since, in Japan. I'm gradually moving back to my film cameras.

Originally posted by thibs

Film is also so much more fun IMO.

For sure. Learning to get the results you want from a certain film is great fun. I enjoy using the cameras more, too. Better viewfinders, smaller/lighter bodies, dials where every click actually has a meaning, great mechanical feedback on buttons that actually do something. No green button.

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04-27-2011, 09:44 PM	#61
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	Originally posted by Pompous Moronox The resolution is very low due to the low pixel count. Also the bottom layers are less sharp than the top one. The red one especially can be bad. Stop reading after this. The BS

04-29-2011, 05:14 AM	#62
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,639	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa not Pentax, but Sony Semiconductor (!= Sony Imaging)... and wait for the next generation of FF sensors to put the crop where it belongs again (as the current generation of FF sensors are 2-3 years old designs). But 6 months ago nobody thought it would be possible to beat FF... So I can tell you : let's see next K...

04-29-2011, 07:16 AM	#63
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Emacs Stop reading after this. The BS not exactly - for example photon that will be absorbed by the "red" layer can enter the surface of one photosite at certain angles and be in the end absorbed by that "red" layer in another photosite, just because the relative sizes of the absorbing layers ... not that it is so noticeable for you, but it is happening... and resolution wise only diehard fanboys will claim that 4.6x3mp will beat 12mp bayer and current cameras (excluding oddities like Fuji or Ricoh) are really 16mp-18mp+ generation... certainly Foveon has an advantage of being more crisp @ 100% because you do not do any demosaicking, but resolution wise it belongs to 8-10mp bayer of the days long (in digital terms) gone.

04-29-2011, 07:19 AM	#64
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by fs999 But 6 months ago nobody thought it would be possible to beat FF... So I can tell you : let's see next K... but it has nothing to do w/ Pentax... except may be that they managed not to waste what Sony Semiconductor was able to accomplish and what Sony Semiconductor might as well accomplish in their next FF sensor unless they will quit FF market (but then Nikon is also not bad, 12mp FF sensors were their own).

04-29-2011, 01:31 PM	#65
Pompous Moronox Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 29	Originally posted by stillshunter Pompous, have you actually experienced a Foveon sensor? I mean for more than a month or so, not 30 minutes in a camera store or a weekend with a friend's unit, or via some really robust research on the web. With all due respect, it's really tedious to hear folks rubbish the Sigma cameras either based on specifications, reviews or a casual handling. I say, own one for at least a month and then tell me about how much you prefer your Bayer! How about laws of physics? Tired of them too? Would they change is I held the camera for an extended period of time? I don't think you show much respect in spite of making hte "with all due respect" statement, when you imply that I rubbish Sigma based on specs or reviews or such. I just tell facts based on the design of the Foveon sensor and the laws of physics. I do not rubbish Sigma, nor Foveon. But the fact is that the today's Foveon sensor is downright awful compared to the most modern APS-C sensors. The next generation sensor on the other hand will be much improved. There will be some colour related issues, but resolution will skyrocket and noise levels will probably go down worth at least 1-2 stops at the base ISO, possbily 3. Is this paragraph also rubbishing Sigma? Or could it be that you're just a bit emotional and unobjective about this issue?

05-02-2011, 05:59 AM	#66
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,639	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa but it has nothing to do w/ Pentax... except may be that they managed not to waste what Sony Semiconductor was able to accomplish and what Sony Semiconductor might as well accomplish in their next FF sensor unless they will quit FF market (but then Nikon is also not bad, 12mp FF sensors were their own). That's not true, you can see the example of the K-5 sensor compared to the D7000 sensor and Sony A580 (the same sensor)... Dxo Mark compare

05-02-2011, 08:48 AM	#67
Coeurdechene Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: madrid Photos: Albums Posts: 833	Originally posted by jeffshaddix Too bad the mounts aren't compatible with a simple adapter. The sigma mount is a spinoff of the k mount...saw a thread about using sigma SD lenses on a pentax body. About the discussion..the foveon seems like a big shift on the way the sensor is built and may, provided it does not sink under economic hardship, surprise. The SD1 seems like an impressive beast..we'll see it's performance when it is finally delivered. I'm really curious to what the foveon will be able to do with some more years and resources on development....CCD is like 30 years old, foveon is prety young...i sure hope Sigma will not drop it.

05-02-2011, 03:22 PM	#68
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Originally posted by Coeurdechene The sigma mount is a spinoff of the k mount...saw a thread about using sigma SD lenses on a pentax body. About the discussion..the foveon seems like a big shift on the way the sensor is built and may, provided it does not sink under economic hardship, surprise. The SD1 seems like an impressive beast..we'll see it's performance when it is finally delivered. I'm really curious to what the foveon will be able to do with some more years and resources on development....CCD is like 30 years old, foveon is prety young...i sure hope Sigma will not drop it. You might find this interesting: Sigma SD1 leaflet and new sample shot.. \| Rytterfalk Fotography I am in all likelihood getting an SD1. I thoroughly enjoy the DP1 and 2.

05-02-2011, 03:52 PM	#69
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by fs999 That's not true, you can see the example of the K-5 sensor compared to the D7000 sensor and Sony A580 (the same sensor)... Dxo Mark compare it is true - the differences between K5 and D7000 are miniscule (and D7000 unlike K5 either doesn't do NR for raw data @ high ISOs or Nikon does it more skillfully) and as for Sony A580 - do not mix Sony Imaging (which makes cameras) w/ Sony Semiconductor (which makes sensors)... Sony Imaging traditionally does something odd w/ Sony Semiconductor's sensors... albeit not always wrong - for example A850/A900 were w/ better CFAs (stronger color separation), instead of better high ISO performance of D3x

05-04-2011, 06:51 PM	#70
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by stanleyk You might find this interesting: Sigma SD1 leaflet and new sample shot.. \| Rytterfalk Fotography I am in all likelihood getting an SD1. I thoroughly enjoy the DP1 and 2. can you wait til August/September? that is when the SD1 is supposed to be available on the market, along with the other new lenses. also, the time where other camera competitors would most likely release their own. atleast you could decided on what you really want.

05-04-2011, 07:15 PM	#71
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Originally posted by Pentaxor can you wait til August/September? that is when the SD1 is supposed to be available on the market, along with the other new lenses. also, the time where other camera competitors would most likely release their own. atleast you could decided on what you really want. I'm pretty set on it. I am very happy with the DP series. I do a lot of B/W and the files from those cameras make really great B/W conversions. Admittedly they can be a bit maddening to use. That said I'm pretty old and started doing photography with a K1000 and a 28/50mm combo and 100 speed film so it's not all that different. I find the Sigma's to be great cameras for people who started with manual film cameras. If you started with a DSLR I can see how they would be a huge headache. Actually they can be a headache even if you are old and started with film cameras. But sometimes that's half the fun/challenge. I'm very happy with the K5 and will continue to use Pentax. I'm just not interested in Full Frame cameras and find the K5 with the 31-43-77 + 100mm macro to be pretty much all I need. I will probably skip the next Pentax body since the K5 is to my way of thinking a really good camera. With the Sigma I'm going to get the 8-16 (which I also have in Pentax mount), the 30mm and probably the 70 and I'll be set. BTW- The Jupiter 9 in quite an incredible lens! But what the heck, I'm a big M4/3 fan so what do I know....

05-04-2011, 11:01 PM	#72
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by stanleyk I'm pretty set on it. I am very happy with the DP series. I do a lot of B/W and the files from those cameras make really great B/W conversions. Admittedly they can be a bit maddening to use. That said I'm pretty old and started doing photography with a K1000 and a 28/50mm combo and 100 speed film so it's not all that different. I find the Sigma's to be great cameras for people who started with manual film cameras. If you started with a DSLR I can see how they would be a huge headache. Actually they can be a headache even if you are old and started with film cameras. But sometimes that's half the fun/challenge. I'm very happy with the K5 and will continue to use Pentax. I'm just not interested in Full Frame cameras and find the K5 with the 31-43-77 + 100mm macro to be pretty much all I need. I will probably skip the next Pentax body since the K5 is to my way of thinking a really good camera. With the Sigma I'm going to get the 8-16 (which I also have in Pentax mount), the 30mm and probably the 70 and I'll be set. BTW- The Jupiter 9 in quite an incredible lens! But what the heck, I'm a big M4/3 fan so what do I know.... I don't have the DP series, although I was considering one for pocket size travel and cadid but the focal length didn't fit my criteria. also considered the GXR. I skipped the K-5 because I'm pretty contented with the K-7 and would rather wait for something of real value o an upgrade for my use. and Yes, the J-9 is really a beautiful lens as well. the only m4/3 camera that has really impressed me is the GH1 although the GH2 is a real step up and would be a better investment for a long time. also, it's a real threat that finally m4/3 have a real fast lens, in the Nokton 25/.95 . too bad it's still not AF but is worth the money for those dedicated m4/3 users.

05-10-2011, 08:56 PM	#73
robgrune Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2	Discussion should be separated between camera body and imager. I think the Foveon has great potential, if Sigma can quickly R&D it t overcome all the weaknesses noted above. R&D speed is critical if Sigma wants to capture market share. To those "pixel counters" photographers, I say what we need is LESS pixels, not more. More pixels creates noise, and image degradation. Less pixels means each is larger, and so can capture more data with less noise. But less also means more heat, because more Voltage is needed to power a larger pixel - and heat kills imagers quickly. This is why Foveon is intriguing - the potential for one imager having only one pixel to capture all data (just like film!). Ya know, I think film might make a comeback. The more I compare my film images to my digital ones, the more I realise how superior film is for image quality. Digital has its conveniences, but still not the image quality. The Leica S2 is getting closer up to say 10x15in prints, but how many of us can afford $30k for one body with one lens?

05-11-2011, 12:20 AM	#74
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Film isalso so much more fun IMO. Just bought a view camera

05-11-2011, 06:19 AM	#75
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by robgrune Ya know, I think film might make a comeback. It's started long since, in Japan. I'm gradually moving back to my film cameras. Originally posted by thibs Film is also so much more fun IMO. For sure. Learning to get the results you want from a certain film is great fun. I enjoy using the cameras more, too. Better viewfinders, smaller/lighter bodies, dials where every click actually has a meaning, great mechanical feedback on buttons that actually do something. No green button.