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07-09-2010, 06:05 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
If the percentages for DSLR FF are as dismal world-wide as they are in Japan, then talk about FF replacing APS-C any time soon are grossly unrealistic. The superior economy of scale for the APS-C sensors, based on the immense superiority in sales, will give it a significant competitive advantage in price for years to come. Those hoping for a Pentax FF better hope that FF sales world-wide, in terms of percentages, aren't nearly so uninspiring as they are in Japan.
I wholly agree

we spend far too much time fantisizing about something that attracts such a small market share that the camera companies probably lose money on each copy.

Sounds a lot like the financial disaster that was known as the LX. A great camera but not a great money winner.

07-10-2010, 03:49 PM   #32
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More Japanese bought Canon 5D Mark II than Pentax K-7 ???

More Japanese bought Canon 5D Mark II than Pentax K-7 ???

I'm surprised Nikon D700 along with Pentax K-7 didn't score in top 20 cameras sales in Japan either.

Thank You for the handy data



QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
A summary:

As taken from the linked thread on dpreview.com:

1) Nikon 34% (2009: 2nd - 31.3%)
2) Canon 31.4% (1st - 39.1%)
3) Panasonic 10.9% (3rd - 8.7%)
4) Pentax 7.8% (6th - 6.4%)
5) Olympus 7.7% (5th - 6.6%)
6) Sony 7.5% (4th - 7.5%)

So, all manufacturers are in the plus, except for Canon, which has lost considerably, and Sony, which has remained stable percentage-wise but dropped 2 places nonetheless.

The author notes the following for every manufacturer:




As taken from the BCN article:
RankModel%
1Nikon D9013.0
2Canon EOS Kiss X3 (500D/T1i)11.5
3Nikon D500010.6
4Canon EOS Kiss X4 (550D/T2i)9.7
5Nikon D30007.9
6Pentax K-x6.3
7Panasonic LUMIX GF16.1
8Olympus E-PL14.6
9Canon EOS 7D3.5
10Canon EOS Kiss X2 (450D/XSi)3.1
11Panasonic LUMIX G12.7
12Sony NEX-52.0
13Canon EOS 5D MarkII1.8
14Canon EOS 50D1.7
15Sony α5501.5
16Sony α3301.4
17Olympus E-P21.3
18Panasonic LUMIX G21.3
19Nikon D300s1.3
20Olympus E-P11.1

Percentage DSLR APS-C: 71.5%
Percentage DSLR FF: 1.8%
Percentage Mirrorless: 19.1%
Unknown: 7.6%
07-10-2010, 06:10 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
More Japanese bought Canon 5D Mark II than Pentax K-7 ???

I'm surprised Nikon D700 along with Pentax K-7 didn't score in top 20 cameras sales in Japan either.

Thank You for the handy data
And interestingly, they bought as many 50Ds as they did 5D Mark II and twice as many 7D's. Not sure what all of that means.
07-10-2010, 06:50 PM   #34
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I keep reading how full frame dslr is a tiny market

I keep reading how full frame dslr is a tiny market

If 5D Mark II sells in just small quantities, then Pentax K-7 fills an even smaller market.

I wonder what would sell more units:

Pentax K-7 or Pentax full frame ?




QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
And interestingly, they bought as many 50Ds as they did 5D Mark II and twice as many 7D's. Not sure what all of that means.


07-10-2010, 10:18 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
A summary:

As taken from the linked thread on dpreview.com:

1) Nikon 34% (2009: 2nd - 31.3%)
2) Canon 31.4% (1st - 39.1%)
3) Panasonic 10.9% (3rd - 8.7%)
4) Pentax 7.8% (6th - 6.4%)
5) Olympus 7.7% (5th - 6.6%)
6) Sony 7.5% (4th - 7.5%)

So, all manufacturers are in the plus, except for Canon, which has lost considerably, and Sony, which has remained stable percentage-wise but dropped 2 places nonetheless.

The author notes the following for every manufacturer:

As taken from the BCN article:
Percentage DSLR APS-C: 71.5%
Percentage DSLR FF: 1.8%
Percentage Mirrorless: 19.1%
Unknown: 7.6%
I run a small business in Japan and from that I've learned just how rankings-conscious Japenese buyers are. We'll soon be introducing a ranking of our products by popularity because it's practically a required form of demonstrating interest in your products.

But pushing for a short-term sale blip with steep discounts at a time when the rest of the firm is losing money sounds like an oddly risky move--possible damaging to long term sales. I honestly can't see how temporarily taking the #1 slot can help Nikon achieve its goals. Between this and the "me-too" announcement of an EVIL camera line, I wonder if the Nikon management isn't perhaps panicking a bit. Perhaps they're starting to see that Panasonic has been doing what Nikon should have been doing if it wanted to mount a legitimate challenge to Canon.
07-11-2010, 02:10 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I keep reading how full frame dslr is a tiny market

If 5D Mark II sells in just small quantities, then Pentax K-7 fills an even smaller market.

I wonder what would sell more units:

Pentax K-7 or Pentax full frame ?
The K-7 isn't a market by itself, neither is the 5Dmk2.

The market size would be more like: total APS-C dslr sales against total FF dslrs sales. And suddenly the 5D looks like an idiot (not that it is, not at all).
07-11-2010, 02:32 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
The K-7 isn't a market by itself, neither is the 5Dmk2.

The market size would be more like: total APS-C dslr sales against total FF dslrs sales. And suddenly the 5D looks like an idiot (not that it is, not at all).
Still I have the idea that a FF Pentax would sell far more compared to the Pentax APS-C models than the 5D compared to the Canon APS-C models. I even dare to say that a FF Pentax, especially if it has 1080p video, would be the best choice for videographers. Just because the Pentax mount is the best choice for using manual focus lenses (M42 + PK).
07-11-2010, 03:24 AM   #38
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You mean, better than 29.5:1.8? Maybe taking ~0.5% of the market?

07-11-2010, 03:58 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Still I have the idea that a FF Pentax would sell far more compared to the Pentax APS-C models than the 5D compared to the Canon APS-C models. I even dare to say that a FF Pentax, especially if it has 1080p video, would be the best choice for videographers. Just because the Pentax mount is the best choice for using manual focus lenses (M42 + PK).
May be but Samsugian comparison is completely flawed IMO and that was my point.
An FF Pentax may indeed sell in better proportion against aps-c cameras from Pentax.
I think Hoya is very attentive to profits made with every single product: if profits are not secured well enough, they will postpone, cancel or go back to drawing board. At least that's how I perceive Hoya's way of doing business.
07-11-2010, 05:16 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
May be but Samsugian comparison is completely flawed IMO and that was my point.
An FF Pentax may indeed sell in better proportion against aps-c cameras from Pentax.
I think Hoya is very attentive to profits made with every single product: if profits are not secured well enough, they will postpone, cancel or go back to drawing board. At least that's how I perceive Hoya's way of doing business.
I agree. I even think I know how a FF model could outsell the K-7 by a considerable margin:

1. Create a FF model with the speed and handling of a K-7 (nott much bigger).

2. Equip the FF model with the old diaphragm simulator coupling (for K-series lenses).

3. Proper 1080p video mode.

It does not need to be a machine gun camera, just a superb picture taker. If Hoya were to create such a camera it would instantly be a cult classic, not only among Pentaxians but also among Canonians and Nikonians.

Of course this will kill some lens sales (which lenses? ) but I could almost guarantee that such a camera will outsell the 5D MkII. Because it's inevitable that the Pentax will be a better camera all around, more suitable for MF primes and with a better IQ. Just imagine the unbelievable good reviews and kudos the camera will get, from all users from all brands. It will put Pentax back on the map almost instantly. Just imagine it. It won't be a 'me too' camera because it will be so much better that it would be considered very dumb to buy a FF Canon. I can also guarantee anyone that such a FF camera will be on backorder all the time

It will also give Hoya some time to build up a superb set of FF zooms/primes (weather sealed with infallible SDM).

At least this is my view on things. It won't take much for Pentax to be VERY successful in that segment on the market.

Last edited by Asahiflex; 07-11-2010 at 05:22 AM.
07-11-2010, 07:43 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Of course this will kill some lens sales (which lenses? ) .
That depends on what lenses they actually release. If they are sufficiently different, lens sales won't get hurt. One example is the 16-50/2.8 from Tokina, of which I'm certain is a Pentax collaboration project. Such lenses do not exist in old form. The Limited will continue to sell. Add weather sealing and SDM and new lenses will be attractive in their own right....
07-11-2010, 11:57 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
it will be so much better that it would be considered very dumb to buy a FF Canon [...]I could almost guarantee that such a camera will outsell the 5D MkII.
Day-dreaming?
Unfortunately, we have to face the reality from time to time. And the reality is, Pentax can't make such a camera (Nikon can't, either - and let's not even talk about Sony).
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