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**Pål Jensen** · 07-12-2010, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Winder

But isn't that exactly what they are doing with the new lenses for the 645D?

How many of the new 645D lenses will the sell a year?

If they can justify building high end glass for the 645D then it should not be hard to justify doing it for the APS-C bodies.

Is there an adapter that allows for 100% functionality of 645D lenses with the K-7?

Because its sells to a completely different market. Pentax MF lenses are very competitively priced. They sell in relatively high volumes for their type. And there's no kit lenses or no cheap third party lenses that set standards among many of what they want to pay.

Winder · 07-12-2010, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Because its sells to a completely different market. Pentax MF lenses are very competitively priced. They sell in relatively high volumes for their type. And there's no kit lenses or no cheap third party lenses that set standards among many of what they want to pay.

If the lens is optically better than the 3rd party offering people will pay for it. The problem Pentax has it that several of it lenses are re-badged 3rd party (Tokina) lenses. I actually think the Tokina's metal body is better quality than the plastic Pentax version, but it lacks WR and SDM.

3rd party lenses are often actually better than the Pentax offering, so people are not willing to pay more for something that is of lesser quality. I wanted to 55mm and would have paid the extra $200 if it was better than the Sigma 50mm.

What people seem to be say it that Pentax does not make these lenses because they can not compete with Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony, or Sigma. If that is the case the Pentax will be out of business soon. Olympus sells fewer cameras and lenses than Pentax every year, but they still make high grade glass.

If Pentax can make high grade glass for the relatively small MF market and make money then they can do it for K-mounts. Even if you captured a much smaller % of buyers, the sheer size of the k-mount user base would equal a greater volume of sales. Hoya is one of the largest providers of optical glass in the business, and Pentax could work with Tokina to design lenses which would lower production costs, and increase volume of sales by selling the same lens in Canon & Nikon mounts. Hopefully the new Tokina full frame lens will make its way into a Pentax mount.

zackspeed · 07-12-2010, 04:46 PM

The only 3rd Party lens is the Tokina 12-24.
All other Tokina/Pentax lenses are complete Pentax development and licence.
and the optical quality is higher at pentax.
better coating

but i like the metalbody more than the plastic pentaxstyle.

best regards,andy

**Pål Jensen** · 07-12-2010, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Winder

3rd party lenses are often actually better than the Pentax offering, so people are not willing to pay more for something that is of lesser quality. .

Simply not true

**Pål Jensen** · 07-12-2010, 05:13 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Winder

If Pentax can make high grade glass for the relatively small MF market and make money then they can do it for K-mounts. .

No you can't. As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money.
Pentax do make high grade lenses for K-mount, but you forget that hardly any of the MF lenses are high-grade in the respect that they are difficult or expensive to make or design. A 135/1.8 for K-mount is more expensive to make than any of the MF lenses in the same price brackett. Not to mention something like a 24/1.4....
The D-FA645 55/2.8 is probably cheaper to make than the DA* 55/1.4 but sell for more.

**Pål Jensen** · 07-12-2010, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Winder

What people seem to be say it that Pentax does not make these lenses because they can not compete with Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony, or Sigma. If that is the case the Pentax will be out of business soon. Olympus sells fewer cameras and lenses than Pentax every year, but they still make high grade glass..

Who says Pentax doesn't make high grade glass? Most of their lenses are high grade. It is not about not being able to compete with Nikon and Canon but making a profit. And when did Olympus put out a phlethora of ultrafast prime lenses people here are lusting after?

**rparmar** · 07-12-2010, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

I have that adapter and tried the FA645 45/2.8 and the FA645 75/2.8 on 35mm slide film. I compared them to the 43 Limited and the FA* 85/1.4, respectively. Theres no contest; the K-mount lenses are significantly better.

Thank you for confirming my conjecture.

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money.

Sing it, brother!

Winder · 07-12-2010, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

No you can't. As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money.

No, it was not about the cost. If I thought the Pentax was a better lens I would have bought it. I prefer the longer focal length of the 55mm and the Sigma is actually wider than 50mm (48mm). I like the WR and the lens hood is of better quality. I used a friends K-7 on and off for a couple of events before buying one. He had tried 2 55mm DA* before selecting the Sigma 50mm. The Sigma AF is faster and quieter than the 55m SDM. At F/1.4 the Sigma is sharper. The only grip with the Sigma is that if the subject is very close (24") it has a slight front focus and some LCA wide open. This is the first Sigma lens I have ever owned.

I bought the Sigma because it is a better lens. Even if you honestly believe the Pentax is as good as the Sigma optically, why would you spend the extra $200.00?

My point is that if Pentax is going to be more expensive then they need to be better. Some of their lenses are better than 3rd party, but not all of them.

I still use my Canon 5D for most work and I don't expect Pentax to roll out something the quality of the 85L, but I think they could at least update the older Limited lenses with modern coating. This is a business and I have no brand loyalty Pentax anymore than I do to Canon or the Olympus system I am selling. I am not going to buy a lesser quality lens just because it says Pentax on it. I will however pay more for a high quality lens if Pentax will make one.

**rparmar** · 07-12-2010, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Winder

I still use my Canon 5D for most work and I don't expect Pentax to roll out something the quality of the 85L, but I think they could at least update the older Limited lenses with modern coating.

Another random comment. Pentax already have the best coating in the business. What exactly is wrong with your Limited lenses that need fixing?

**Aristophanes** · 07-12-2010, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Why do you think they go for over $1000? Because nobody bought them - they were too expensive, even with Pentax then very reasonable lens price policy (long gone). They are as rare as hens teeth. Some FA* lenses are made in numbers of a few hundreds.
Same goes for the A* 135/1.8 and the A* 85/1.4. They are rare.

People are dreaming about high-end lenses; some of the an impossibility practically speaking. But most end up not buying them; particularly when they see the price.

+2 for the bang-on economic analysis.

Pentax *could* make a 135/3.5 again at reasonable cost. But the market is obsessed with fast glass, then whines about softness at apertures below 3.5!

The same reason why there is no lower cost alternative to the 50/1.4 like a 1.7 or f/2.

The low-end "good enough" buyers would cannibalize sales from the more profitable high-end, the latter of which Pentax needs badly when it simply does not have the volume of sales to justify the investment.

Finally, it's also about the zooms. The IQ of 50-135 at 135/2.8 is super wicked awesome. Pentax definitely does not want sales to leech from that lens in favour of a few primes. For many shooters, the zooms can match primes for IQ. They lose on mass, but you'd need to print a barn door size photo to see the differences between top-flight zooms and primes.

MSM · 07-12-2010, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by emr

49? What the heck's 49mm?

Man, if Pentax doesn't release the D-FA 49 mm/1.2 WR at Photokina I know many including myself are out of here.

MSM · 07-12-2010, 08:12 PM

Very interesting thread. I appreciate the different view points. I tend to agree with those (Pal, Robin, Aristophanes..)that point to the shear cost of the more exotic lenses and the relative lack of market of true buyers.

Just curious, which would be more expensive and difficult to design a long (>400) fast lens or a wide fast lens as those mentioned here (20-24/1.4-2).

tigrebleu · 07-12-2010, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by zackspeed

In september at Photokina we will see a couple of new lenses and new aps-c bodys and the 645 with new lenses.
Also Tokina shows new lenses,and some glass in coproduction with pentax.
It looks like,that the DA*16-50 is going to be out of production,will see whats coming up for that.
Hope they bring a new one.

Best regards,Andy

Please tell me you have seom Pentax insider's information to support that, or at least something similar!

Because if it's just conjectures of your mind and I end up being stuck with the DA*16-50mm as the only weather resistant WA lens, I'll go mad!

tigrebleu · 07-12-2010, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by RawheaD

Please, DA 12-24WR or better yet, DA* 10-22.

I second that!

DA 12-24 WR would be nice, but a possible DA*10-22 comes up with F/2.8 aperture and similar IQ, I'll go for it without hesitation!

**interested_observer** · 07-12-2010, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by tigrebleu

I second that!

DA 12-24 WR would be nice, but a possible DA*10-22 comes up with F/2.8 aperture and similar IQ, I'll go for it without hesitation!

What would possess Pentax to design an entirely new from scratch 10-22/f2.8 when Tokina has a 11-16/2.8 that by all accounts is just superb. Folks around here have been waiting for that for over 2 years now. Just add WR seals and their done....

07-12-2010, 05:13 PM - 1 Like	#80
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Winder If Pentax can make high grade glass for the relatively small MF market and make money then they can do it for K-mounts. . No you can't. As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money. Pentax do make high grade lenses for K-mount, but you forget that hardly any of the MF lenses are high-grade in the respect that they are difficult or expensive to make or design. A 135/1.8 for K-mount is more expensive to make than any of the MF lenses in the same price brackett. Not to mention something like a 24/1.4.... The D-FA645 55/2.8 is probably cheaper to make than the DA* 55/1.4 but sell for more. Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-12-2010 at 05:23 PM.

07-12-2010, 06:24 PM	#83
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Pål Jensen No you can't. As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money. No, it was not about the cost. If I thought the Pentax was a better lens I would have bought it. I prefer the longer focal length of the 55mm and the Sigma is actually wider than 50mm (48mm). I like the WR and the lens hood is of better quality. I used a friends K-7 on and off for a couple of events before buying one. He had tried 2 55mm DA* before selecting the Sigma 50mm. The Sigma AF is faster and quieter than the 55m SDM. At F/1.4 the Sigma is sharper. The only grip with the Sigma is that if the subject is very close (24") it has a slight front focus and some LCA wide open. This is the first Sigma lens I have ever owned. I bought the Sigma because it is a better lens. Even if you honestly believe the Pentax is as good as the Sigma optically, why would you spend the extra $200.00? My point is that if Pentax is going to be more expensive then they need to be better. Some of their lenses are better than 3rd party, but not all of them. I still use my Canon 5D for most work and I don't expect Pentax to roll out something the quality of the 85L, but I think they could at least update the older Limited lenses with modern coating. This is a business and I have no brand loyalty Pentax anymore than I do to Canon or the Olympus system I am selling. I am not going to buy a lesser quality lens just because it says Pentax on it. I will however pay more for a high quality lens if Pentax will make one. Last edited by Winder; 07-12-2010 at 06:38 PM.

07-12-2010, 07:05 PM	#85
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Why do you think they go for over $1000? Because nobody bought them - they were too expensive, even with Pentax then very reasonable lens price policy (long gone). They are as rare as hens teeth. Some FA* lenses are made in numbers of a few hundreds. Same goes for the A* 135/1.8 and the A* 85/1.4. They are rare. People are dreaming about high-end lenses; some of the an impossibility practically speaking. But most end up not buying them; particularly when they see the price. +2 for the bang-on economic analysis. Pentax could make a 135/3.5 again at reasonable cost. But the market is obsessed with fast glass, then whines about softness at apertures below 3.5! The same reason why there is no lower cost alternative to the 50/1.4 like a 1.7 or f/2. The low-end "good enough" buyers would cannibalize sales from the more profitable high-end, the latter of which Pentax needs badly when it simply does not have the volume of sales to justify the investment. Finally, it's also about the zooms. The IQ of 50-135 at 135/2.8 is super wicked awesome. Pentax definitely does not want sales to leech from that lens in favour of a few primes. For many shooters, the zooms can match primes for IQ. They lose on mass, but you'd need to print a barn door size photo to see the differences between top-flight zooms and primes. Last edited by Aristophanes; 07-13-2010 at 04:49 AM.

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07-12-2010, 03:47 PM	#76
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Winder But isn't that exactly what they are doing with the new lenses for the 645D? How many of the new 645D lenses will the sell a year? If they can justify building high end glass for the 645D then it should not be hard to justify doing it for the APS-C bodies. Is there an adapter that allows for 100% functionality of 645D lenses with the K-7? Because its sells to a completely different market. Pentax MF lenses are very competitively priced. They sell in relatively high volumes for their type. And there's no kit lenses or no cheap third party lenses that set standards among many of what they want to pay.

07-12-2010, 04:24 PM	#77
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Because its sells to a completely different market. Pentax MF lenses are very competitively priced. They sell in relatively high volumes for their type. And there's no kit lenses or no cheap third party lenses that set standards among many of what they want to pay. If the lens is optically better than the 3rd party offering people will pay for it. The problem Pentax has it that several of it lenses are re-badged 3rd party (Tokina) lenses. I actually think the Tokina's metal body is better quality than the plastic Pentax version, but it lacks WR and SDM. 3rd party lenses are often actually better than the Pentax offering, so people are not willing to pay more for something that is of lesser quality. I wanted to 55mm and would have paid the extra $200 if it was better than the Sigma 50mm. What people seem to be say it that Pentax does not make these lenses because they can not compete with Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony, or Sigma. If that is the case the Pentax will be out of business soon. Olympus sells fewer cameras and lenses than Pentax every year, but they still make high grade glass. If Pentax can make high grade glass for the relatively small MF market and make money then they can do it for K-mounts. Even if you captured a much smaller % of buyers, the sheer size of the k-mount user base would equal a greater volume of sales. Hoya is one of the largest providers of optical glass in the business, and Pentax could work with Tokina to design lenses which would lower production costs, and increase volume of sales by selling the same lens in Canon & Nikon mounts. Hopefully the new Tokina full frame lens will make its way into a Pentax mount.

07-12-2010, 04:46 PM	#78
zackspeed Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 527	The only 3rd Party lens is the Tokina 12-24. All other Tokina/Pentax lenses are complete Pentax development and licence. and the optical quality is higher at pentax. better coating but i like the metalbody more than the plastic pentaxstyle. best regards,andy

07-12-2010, 05:09 PM	#79
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Winder 3rd party lenses are often actually better than the Pentax offering, so people are not willing to pay more for something that is of lesser quality. . Simply not true

07-12-2010, 05:25 PM	#81
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Winder What people seem to be say it that Pentax does not make these lenses because they can not compete with Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony, or Sigma. If that is the case the Pentax will be out of business soon. Olympus sells fewer cameras and lenses than Pentax every year, but they still make high grade glass.. Who says Pentax doesn't make high grade glass? Most of their lenses are high grade. It is not about not being able to compete with Nikon and Canon but making a profit. And when did Olympus put out a phlethora of ultrafast prime lenses people here are lusting after?

07-12-2010, 05:43 PM	#82
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by Pål Jensen I have that adapter and tried the FA645 45/2.8 and the FA645 75/2.8 on 35mm slide film. I compared them to the 43 Limited and the FA* 85/1.4, respectively. Theres no contest; the K-mount lenses are significantly better. Thank you for confirming my conjecture. Originally posted by Pål Jensen As you said yourself you buy Sigma lenses instead. They are no better; it is just an excuse to save money. Sing it, brother!

07-12-2010, 06:48 PM	#84
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by Winder I still use my Canon 5D for most work and I don't expect Pentax to roll out something the quality of the 85L, but I think they could at least update the older Limited lenses with modern coating. Another random comment. Pentax already have the best coating in the business. What exactly is wrong with your Limited lenses that need fixing?

07-12-2010, 08:02 PM	#86
MSM Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 994	Originally posted by emr 49? What the heck's 49mm? Man, if Pentax doesn't release the D-FA 49 mm/1.2 WR at Photokina I know many including myself are out of here.

07-12-2010, 08:12 PM	#87
MSM Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 994	Very interesting thread. I appreciate the different view points. I tend to agree with those (Pal, Robin, Aristophanes..)that point to the shear cost of the more exotic lenses and the relative lack of market of true buyers. Just curious, which would be more expensive and difficult to design a long (>400) fast lens or a wide fast lens as those mentioned here (20-24/1.4-2).

07-12-2010, 09:06 PM	#88
tigrebleu Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Lévis, Canada (Québec) Posts: 144	Originally posted by zackspeed In september at Photokina we will see a couple of new lenses and new aps-c bodys and the 645 with new lenses. Also Tokina shows new lenses,and some glass in coproduction with pentax. It looks like,that the DA16-50 is going to be out of production,will see whats coming up for that. Hope they bring a new one. Best regards,Andy Please tell me you have seom Pentax insider's information to support that, or at least something similar! Because if it's just conjectures of your mind and I end up being stuck with the DA16-50mm as the only weather resistant WA lens, I'll go mad!

07-12-2010, 09:10 PM	#89
tigrebleu Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Lévis, Canada (Québec) Posts: 144	Originally posted by RawheaD Please, DA 12-24WR or better yet, DA* 10-22. I second that! DA 12-24 WR would be nice, but a possible DA*10-22 comes up with F/2.8 aperture and similar IQ, I'll go for it without hesitation!

07-12-2010, 09:20 PM	#90
interested_observer Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,707	Originally posted by tigrebleu I second that! DA 12-24 WR would be nice, but a possible DA*10-22 comes up with F/2.8 aperture and similar IQ, I'll go for it without hesitation! What would possess Pentax to design an entirely new from scratch 10-22/f2.8 when Tokina has a 11-16/2.8 that by all accounts is just superb. Folks around here have been waiting for that for over 2 years now. Just add WR seals and their done....

new lenses?

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