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07-23-2010, 02:57 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
No, I don't know it at all.
And I don't even see a hint of sign that there is a strong demand for FF; not at the current price level.
I don't believe that "FF sensors have enormously come down in price" either. Yes, it is cheaper, but still an order of magnitude greater than APS-C's price.
A FF sensor should be in the ~$200 price range. For APS-C it's ~$50. So relatively speaking you are correct, but in absolute terms it's a different matter.

I don't want Pentax to wait with a FF camera. They should act pro-actively before they lose more and more customers. What if they miss the FF bandwagon completely? The FF market is bound to grow in the future.

07-23-2010, 03:18 AM   #92
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I've been wondering how small you could make a FF based EVIL camera that retained the K-Mounts registration distance - by doing away with the mirror box could you make it smaller?

I'm suggesting one way or the other if this is a good idea - rather I am just wondering about it's feasibility.
07-23-2010, 03:23 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caat Quote
I've been wondering how small you could make a FF based EVIL camera that retained the K-Mounts registration distance - by doing away with the mirror box could you make it smaller?

I'm suggesting one way or the other if this is a good idea - rather I am just wondering about it's feasibility.
Nope. Because of registration distance, depth of the camera would be fixed anyway, so there'd be no point. Mirrorbox or not, depth shall remain the same because of registration distance.
07-23-2010, 03:30 AM   #94
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FF house is no problem for pentax imo.....

The problem is still lenses....just because the enthousiasts/hobbyists are sitting on old FA glass doesnt mean they will make an FF house for them.

The K-x production and marketing are a hint of what Pentax is thinking about. They kicked ass in the entry level segment and i believe they use it as a sponsor for the 645 production, wich:

probably need a lens or two this year.

Ok. We have the DA*55, 60-250, 200 and 300. They seems to fit FF, and the prices on those are good to, compared to other FF lens brands.

hmmm.....when i think of it....it isnt bad att all. A FF house and those lenses still in production is a rather strong FF base..... And those who want FF will gladly pay for it.

What will happen to SR? Will SR work with a FF sensor in a camera sized as the K-20 maybe?

Do FF need SR at all? Well...the others have IS and VR in their FF lenses.....so again, we have a lens problem.....

DA line has been quiet. Wich imo is good news, that means that they're up to something.

They WILL still maintain their position in the entry level segment, thats for sure i believe.
With a K-x replacent being cheaper and with more feautures than the others. K-5 probably.

Regarding K-7 and FF, i wont even speculate, we will probably be surprised as always. And THAT is whats really fun about sticking with Pentax!!!

I want to encourage you all with the words: Dont sit and wait, go out and use your great gear and have fun taking exellent pictures. We will se whats in store for us soon. The more you wait the longer time it takes......

07-23-2010, 03:46 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by obheng Quote
Yes, a small K-7 sized FF, with improved Canikon AF speed and high-ISO noise performance will be a great differentiator for Pentax.
I'd buy that for a dollar!
07-23-2010, 04:44 AM   #96
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I'm waiting for a pink 645D.
07-23-2010, 05:24 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I'm waiting for a pink 645D.
Yeah, you and Miley Cyrus
07-23-2010, 05:43 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by the swede Quote

What will happen to SR? Will SR work with a FF sensor in a camera sized as the K-20 maybe?

Do FF need SR at all? Well...the others have IS and VR in their FF lenses.....so again, we have a lens problem.....
Do you know that Sony is also producing FF bodies? And no stabilization in lenses, just like Pentax. So... they put it in their FF bodies. So yes, I guess it is possible. And no lens problem (still at least 14 FF lenses in production now) ;-)

07-23-2010, 07:17 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
Do you know that Sony is also producing FF bodies? And no stabilization in lenses, just like Pentax. So... they put it in their FF bodies. So yes, I guess it is possible. And no lens problem (still at least 14 FF lenses in production now) ;-)
Thanks! You're absolutely right about that! My bad
07-23-2010, 07:27 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nope. Because of registration distance, depth of the camera would be fixed anyway, so there'd be no point. Mirrorbox or not, depth shall remain the same because of registration distance.
I realise that the depth is determined by the registration distance and I realise that due to the thickness of the sensor and LCD display currently being thicker than the negative and film holder/assembly that the minimum depth for any FF K-mount DSLR will be thicker than a 35mm film version.

However given that the mirrorbox assembly accounts for a large amount of the internal volume of a camera (because the whole thing has to be shifted out the way of the light path) I was wondering how much the general size of the camera could be shrunk - not the thickness. The amount of space required is proportionately more for a FF sensor because the mirror box assembly has to be bigger.

Without out all of this and a pentaprism I was conjecturing how small the camera could get.

Take the MX - clearly not attainable as a FF DSLR with current technology. Take away the mirror box and penta-prism make it slightly thicker to account for the sensor space etc etc.

It's a thought. A very much theoretical one. Of course you have power source issues, circuit boards and so on.

My main point I guess that the depth isn't so much the problem. Thin does not necessarily equal small and vice versa.
07-23-2010, 07:32 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
Do you know that Sony is also producing FF bodies? And no stabilization in lenses, just like Pentax. So... they put it in their FF bodies. So yes, I guess it is possible. And no lens problem (still at least 14 FF lenses in production now) ;-)
I remember reading here that the image circle wasn't big enough to cover a whole FF frame including SR variations when it comes to K-mount.

Can someone confirm this?
07-23-2010, 07:42 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
I remember reading here that the image circle wasn't big enough to cover a whole FF frame including SR variations when it comes to K-mount.

Can someone confirm this?
I can't confirm it but I have heard the same thing, possible from the same source though.

I remember there being a doubt as to whether SR could lead to vignetting on which ever corners the sensor has moved away from.

However I don't know if anyone has actually worked this out - I am assuming that once you know the specs of the mount it should be possible. Would this be an effect that would vary with lenses - do some have bigger image circles than others?
07-23-2010, 08:49 AM - 3 Likes   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caat Quote
However I don't know if anyone has actually worked this out - I am assuming that once you know the specs of the mount it should be possible. Would this be an effect that would vary with lenses - do some have bigger image circles than others?
Please, go to my Sharpness Understanding White Paper and retrieve this formula:
b_shake (t) = υ t f
with υ=10 mrad/s

E.g., at f=50mm and t=1/5s the shake is 10/1000/s * 1/5 s * 50mm= 0.1mm.

The amount of additional image circle for shake reduction is not realistically estimated by most people. It's almost nothing.

It is larger for extreme tele lenses (the Pentax SR is made for up to 800mm focal length) because you always have to add about 25ms (1/40s) extra time for SR initialization and curtain travel times. And a bad shake requires 2-3x the amount of shift. Combine all this and you require 1.2mm. A value Pentax conservatively rounded up to 2mm.

However, extreme tele lenses have huge image circles. There is no real difference between an 35mm and an MF 600mm lens.


So, the entire SR discussion has zero impact on any FF discussion. Except maybe that it increases the engineering effort required to implant an FF sensor. As unlike shutter, prism and mirror, it is a first. BTW, you need a shutter with slightly larger opening too. So, you probably can't simply reuse your old 35mm shutter ...

Last edited by falconeye; 07-23-2010 at 09:05 AM.
07-23-2010, 10:17 AM   #104
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I`m ready to bet on a mirrorless camera. At least one of those 2 announced. I`ve just received an invitation to join the "twin brother" of this forum Mirrorless Camera Forums - Friendly Photography Community . I`m sure that you are aware that all we do is just guessing. We have no clue about what Hoya is thinking now.
07-23-2010, 10:36 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
So, the entire SR discussion has zero impact on any FF discussion.
Thanks Falk!

Now its just down to market demand and business case...
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