"K-Rumors" reporting of two new K models at Photokina

nanok · 07-22-2010, 06:30 PM

yes. in the same way trek is begging for a dollar (not able, after all these years, to do a motorbike, still struggling with bikes). we're talking about a different niche, not about asking for money and offering nothing. many people enjoy using manual lenses on their dslrs (even exclusively), pentax is already the frendliest with them (followed by canon, and nikon being the farthest of all manufacturers i know), this would only be acknowledging the niche and taking a firm and "official" hold of it. they would be followed, too, very shortly.

rvannatta · 07-22-2010, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by nanok

you're no fun. this is the news and rumors forum. news only goes here with special permission, and you can get banned for being reasonable. (and stoned to death for being reasonable and correct)

well, I'll start a reasonable rumor and see if I get stoned.

I presently own a K-10 and have passed the last couple releases for no special reason other than that they weren't 'that much different' from the K-10, but I'm
about ready to buy.

Now here's the rumor. when the K-7 is replaced, as I assume it will be some day
I'll likely buy the replacement if it has any new features making it worth the price differential from the K-7 and provided it still supports backwards campatiability with my extensive lens collection. I will NOT buy a caikon anytime soon no matter what Pentax does.

Digital photogaphy is getting fairly mature and has little use for a 'new model' every 6 months, and I'm surely not going to buy a new camera every 6 months
but they usually trot out something for Photokina, and if this ;year it happens
to be a 'better than a k-7 or a K7 replacement, Pentax will likely sell at least one of them.

nanok · 07-22-2010, 07:45 PM

aaaah, so you're one of "those". you're one of those who think their camera can still take pictures which are as good as those it used to take when it was new (and perhaps hyped). one of those who thinks the point is to use the damn thing, rather than agonize about what to buy next. one who thinks lenses are actually more important...

i'm disgusted. stones are too good for you

is this where i put the smiley? smiley.

Slowpoke Rodriguez · 07-22-2010, 07:58 PM

I own, and use, manual focus lenses in addition to my autofocus lenses. But, I think that Pentax would have a very difficult time attracting new customers if they were seen as the manual focus company. I don't think many people that are relatively new to photography would choose the Pentax system if that is how they were seen.

lurchlarson · 07-22-2010, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by nanok

aaaah, so you're one of "those". you're one of those who think their camera can still take pictures which are as good as those it used to take when it was new (and perhaps hyped). one of those who thinks the point is to use the damn thing, rather than agonize about what to buy next. one who thinks lenses are actually more important...

i'm disgusted. stones are too good for you

is this where i put the smiley? smiley.

Luckily for me, the k200d was never really "replaced" and therefore I've avoided the CBA (for the most part). The K7 is a great camera but in a lot of ways I like the k200d better.

nanok · 07-22-2010, 08:37 PM

the k200d was imho a shortlived, immediately abandoned concept. i personaly regret it even more than the k10/k20 in some ways (i like the k10d body more than the k7, i think, but the k200d was really as it should be, and now is gone in too many ways.) i don't know, perhaps it was deemed too close to the k20d in specs, though i could never see it like that. i am surprised you compare the k200d to the k7 though.

Nimrad · 07-22-2010, 10:59 PM

Isn't the lack of new lenses lately maybe an indicator of Pentax developing digital FF lenses?

eigelb · 07-22-2010, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Nimrad

Isn't the lack of new lenses lately maybe an indicator of Pentax developing digital FF lenses?

I hope so, but maybe it was becaus of manufacturing the 645D and 645D lens - "lenses" and "2" new upcoming dsrl´s.

Caat · 07-23-2010, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by eigelb

I hope so, but maybe it was becaus of manufacturing the 645D and 645D lens - "lenses" and "2" new upcoming dsrl´s.

I think the lack of new lenses is probably because of the a combination of that and the fact that Pentax may want to release lenses and bodies together at Photokina and so held back the lenses a bit.

Alternatively it may be because the DA lineup is indeed complete and a new series lenses is coming in September - be that FF, micro mount or a new APS-C series.

shiner · 07-23-2010, 01:32 AM

In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7.

Asahiflex · 07-23-2010, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by shiner

In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7.

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Pentax has always been FF since 1952, when they sold their new Asahiflex camera, the first 35mm SLR from Japan. The first available Pentax DSLR, the *ist D, was APS-C for cost reasons (FF sensors were very expensive back then). The same applies to all subsequent Pentax DSLR's. Now that FF sensors have enormously come down in price I see no reason for Pentax to stick with APS-C only.

It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it. It has nothing to do with being a pro or not, FF is not a pro format but the traditional enthusiast format. Just because all current FF cameras are bulky and heavy does not mean that a Pentax FF should be bulky and heavy too. Pentax is known for their small cameras so a FF camera will be small too (maybe even the smallest FF on the market).

obheng · 07-23-2010, 02:28 AM

Yes, a small K-7 sized FF, with improved Canikon AF speed and high-ISO noise performance will be a great differentiator for Pentax.

nosnoop · 07-23-2010, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it.

No, I don't know it at all.
And I don't even see a hint of sign that there is a strong demand for FF; not at the current price level.
I don't believe that "FF sensors have enormously come down in price" either. Yes, it is cheaper, but still an order of magnitude greater than APS-C's price.

ghelary · 07-23-2010, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by shiner

In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7.

FF is not a "pro" tool. "Pro" is a category where very different professions are put, and different professions means different needs. The term "pro" camera is mostly used by amateurs, "pro" simply used a tool that fit their needs. Many people use a car professionnally but would you call a car "pro" ? Cars are with more or less luxury, power, confort, cargo load, reliability, but there is no "pro" category.

The same goes for cameras, most of the professional photographers I met use APSC SLR cameras because your average "pro" photographer doesn't earn that much from this profession. FF cameras are becoming increasingly propular among wedding photographers because of better low light ability and (usually) better AF, but sport photographers in fact are not that all for FF, Canon's high end is still APS-H and those photographers see it as an advantage over FF (better reach)

Other specialities (Architecture, Landscape, Fashion) were considering 35mm film as low end during film days. Now most are using digital (not always FF) SLR because of cost issues and the fact that imagge quality is much higher than during film days. But MF and LF are still considered higher end.

Journalism is in a crisis and most photo-journalists are struggling to make a living of it. You would be surprised to see how many of them are using Canon 7Ds and Nikon D300(s) and older APSC cameras.

Art photography which is the domain I'm most interested in, have not given up on film, only a minority of the artists I have attended exibitions are using digital. Now when you look at what they are using, it ranges from Lomo 35mm film toy camera with outdated film, or hand made pinhole cameras to the largest Large Format camera they could find (I believe the negatives from this artist were A4 sized, anyway the massive print were detail porn)

So at the end of the day, saying "FF is pro", is showing that you don't much about contemporay photographical landscape. In fact, the people who own the most gear are weathly amateur who buy cameras instead of exepensive cars (why not ?) Leica is the paramount of that, many artists are still using their film cameras, but Leica makes a livng from vey wealthy amateurs. And that's not to say anything against Leica, since they are still making some of the very finest glass around.

shiner · 07-23-2010, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Pentax has always been FF since 1952, when they sold their new Asahiflex camera, the first 35mm SLR from Japan. The first available Pentax DSLR, the *ist D, was APS-C for cost reasons (FF sensors were very expensive back then). The same applies to all subsequent Pentax DSLR's. Now that FF sensors have enormously come down in price I see no reason for Pentax to stick with APS-C only.

It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it. It has nothing to do with being a pro or not, FF is not a pro format but the traditional enthusiast format. Just because all current FF cameras are bulky and heavy does not mean that a Pentax FF should be bulky and heavy too. Pentax is known for their small cameras so a FF camera will be small too (maybe even the smallest FF on the market).

Film size and sensor size are two very different things IMO. Even if Pentax could make a FF camera as small as a K-7 (which is still larger than a MX/ME, BTW), and for less money than anyone else by a long shot, there is still the looming investment in FF digital lenses. If it was the same price as a K-7, I would still hesitate due to the virtual lens collection reboot. But maybe you're right and the market is a lot more fluid than I think it is...

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07-22-2010, 06:30 PM	#76
nanok Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 969	yes. in the same way trek is begging for a dollar (not able, after all these years, to do a motorbike, still struggling with bikes). we're talking about a different niche, not about asking for money and offering nothing. many people enjoy using manual lenses on their dslrs (even exclusively), pentax is already the frendliest with them (followed by canon, and nikon being the farthest of all manufacturers i know), this would only be acknowledging the niche and taking a firm and "official" hold of it. they would be followed, too, very shortly.

07-22-2010, 07:22 PM	#77
rvannatta Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Apiary, Oregon Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,181	Originally posted by nanok you're no fun. this is the news and rumors forum. news only goes here with special permission, and you can get banned for being reasonable. (and stoned to death for being reasonable and correct) well, I'll start a reasonable rumor and see if I get stoned. I presently own a K-10 and have passed the last couple releases for no special reason other than that they weren't 'that much different' from the K-10, but I'm about ready to buy. Now here's the rumor. when the K-7 is replaced, as I assume it will be some day I'll likely buy the replacement if it has any new features making it worth the price differential from the K-7 and provided it still supports backwards campatiability with my extensive lens collection. I will NOT buy a caikon anytime soon no matter what Pentax does. Digital photogaphy is getting fairly mature and has little use for a 'new model' every 6 months, and I'm surely not going to buy a new camera every 6 months but they usually trot out something for Photokina, and if this ;year it happens to be a 'better than a k-7 or a K7 replacement, Pentax will likely sell at least one of them.

07-22-2010, 07:45 PM	#78
nanok Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 969	aaaah, so you're one of "those". you're one of those who think their camera can still take pictures which are as good as those it used to take when it was new (and perhaps hyped). one of those who thinks the point is to use the damn thing, rather than agonize about what to buy next. one who thinks lenses are actually more important... i'm disgusted. stones are too good for you is this where i put the smiley? smiley.

07-22-2010, 07:58 PM	#79
Slowpoke Rodriguez Inactive Account Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alexandria, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 100	I own, and use, manual focus lenses in addition to my autofocus lenses. But, I think that Pentax would have a very difficult time attracting new customers if they were seen as the manual focus company. I don't think many people that are relatively new to photography would choose the Pentax system if that is how they were seen.

07-22-2010, 08:17 PM	#80
lurchlarson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oregon, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 681	Originally posted by nanok aaaah, so you're one of "those". you're one of those who think their camera can still take pictures which are as good as those it used to take when it was new (and perhaps hyped). one of those who thinks the point is to use the damn thing, rather than agonize about what to buy next. one who thinks lenses are actually more important... i'm disgusted. stones are too good for you is this where i put the smiley? smiley. Luckily for me, the k200d was never really "replaced" and therefore I've avoided the CBA (for the most part). The K7 is a great camera but in a lot of ways I like the k200d better.

07-22-2010, 08:37 PM	#81
nanok Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 969	the k200d was imho a shortlived, immediately abandoned concept. i personaly regret it even more than the k10/k20 in some ways (i like the k10d body more than the k7, i think, but the k200d was really as it should be, and now is gone in too many ways.) i don't know, perhaps it was deemed too close to the k20d in specs, though i could never see it like that. i am surprised you compare the k200d to the k7 though.

07-22-2010, 10:59 PM	#82
Nimrad Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 150	Isn't the lack of new lenses lately maybe an indicator of Pentax developing digital FF lenses?

07-22-2010, 11:07 PM	#83
eigelb Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Italy Posts: 174	Originally posted by Nimrad Isn't the lack of new lenses lately maybe an indicator of Pentax developing digital FF lenses? I hope so, but maybe it was becaus of manufacturing the 645D and 645D lens - "lenses" and "2" new upcoming dsrl´s.

07-23-2010, 12:42 AM	#84
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by eigelb I hope so, but maybe it was becaus of manufacturing the 645D and 645D lens - "lenses" and "2" new upcoming dsrl´s. I think the lack of new lenses is probably because of the a combination of that and the fact that Pentax may want to release lenses and bodies together at Photokina and so held back the lenses a bit. Alternatively it may be because the DA lineup is indeed complete and a new series lenses is coming in September - be that FF, micro mount or a new APS-C series.

07-23-2010, 01:32 AM	#85
shiner Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N GA USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,127	In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7.

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07-23-2010, 01:43 AM	#86
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by shiner In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7. Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Pentax has always been FF since 1952, when they sold their new Asahiflex camera, the first 35mm SLR from Japan. The first available Pentax DSLR, the *ist D, was APS-C for cost reasons (FF sensors were very expensive back then). The same applies to all subsequent Pentax DSLR's. Now that FF sensors have enormously come down in price I see no reason for Pentax to stick with APS-C only. It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it. It has nothing to do with being a pro or not, FF is not a pro format but the traditional enthusiast format. Just because all current FF cameras are bulky and heavy does not mean that a Pentax FF should be bulky and heavy too. Pentax is known for their small cameras so a FF camera will be small too (maybe even the smallest FF on the market).

07-23-2010, 02:28 AM	#87
obheng Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 30	Yes, a small K-7 sized FF, with improved Canikon AF speed and high-ISO noise performance will be a great differentiator for Pentax.

07-23-2010, 02:35 AM	#88
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by Asahiflex It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it. No, I don't know it at all. And I don't even see a hint of sign that there is a strong demand for FF; not at the current price level. I don't believe that "FF sensors have enormously come down in price" either. Yes, it is cheaper, but still an order of magnitude greater than APS-C's price.

07-23-2010, 02:36 AM	#89
ghelary Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 613	Originally posted by shiner In this economy, some new FF body would be a wash. Pentax has always been an enthusiast camera company first, but a FF is basically a pro tool. Most shooters need to be able to justify and/or "write off" such a big expense, but the average enthusiast/advanced amateur simply doesn't need one- not to mention the massive added weight and size factor of a FF system, also not a traditional Pentax trait. My bet (and hope) is against FF, and for an evolved K-x and K-7. FF is not a "pro" tool. "Pro" is a category where very different professions are put, and different professions means different needs. The term "pro" camera is mostly used by amateurs, "pro" simply used a tool that fit their needs. Many people use a car professionnally but would you call a car "pro" ? Cars are with more or less luxury, power, confort, cargo load, reliability, but there is no "pro" category. The same goes for cameras, most of the professional photographers I met use APSC SLR cameras because your average "pro" photographer doesn't earn that much from this profession. FF cameras are becoming increasingly propular among wedding photographers because of better low light ability and (usually) better AF, but sport photographers in fact are not that all for FF, Canon's high end is still APS-H and those photographers see it as an advantage over FF (better reach) Other specialities (Architecture, Landscape, Fashion) were considering 35mm film as low end during film days. Now most are using digital (not always FF) SLR because of cost issues and the fact that imagge quality is much higher than during film days. But MF and LF are still considered higher end. Journalism is in a crisis and most photo-journalists are struggling to make a living of it. You would be surprised to see how many of them are using Canon 7Ds and Nikon D300(s) and older APSC cameras. Art photography which is the domain I'm most interested in, have not given up on film, only a minority of the artists I have attended exibitions are using digital. Now when you look at what they are using, it ranges from Lomo 35mm film toy camera with outdated film, or hand made pinhole cameras to the largest Large Format camera they could find (I believe the negatives from this artist were A4 sized, anyway the massive print were detail porn) So at the end of the day, saying "FF is pro", is showing that you don't much about contemporay photographical landscape. In fact, the people who own the most gear are weathly amateur who buy cameras instead of exepensive cars (why not ?) Leica is the paramount of that, many artists are still using their film cameras, but Leica makes a livng from vey wealthy amateurs. And that's not to say anything against Leica, since they are still making some of the very finest glass around.

07-23-2010, 02:54 AM	#90
shiner Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N GA USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,127	Originally posted by Asahiflex Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Pentax has always been FF since 1952, when they sold their new Asahiflex camera, the first 35mm SLR from Japan. The first available Pentax DSLR, the ist D, was APS-C for cost reasons (FF sensors were very expensive back then). The same applies to all subsequent Pentax DSLR's. Now that FF sensors have enormously come down in price I see no reason for Pentax to stick with APS-C only. It's time for FF. Pentax knows it and we know it. It has nothing to do with being a pro or not, FF is not a pro format but the traditional enthusiast format. Just because all current FF cameras are bulky and heavy does not mean that a Pentax FF should be bulky and heavy too. Pentax is known for their small cameras so a FF camera will be small too (maybe even the smallest FF on the market). Film size and sensor size are two very different things IMO. Even if Pentax could make a FF camera as small as a K-7 (which is still larger than a MX/ME, BTW), and for less money than anyone else by a long shot, there is still the looming investment in FF digital lenses. If it was the same* price as a K-7, I would still hesitate due to the virtual lens collection reboot. But maybe you're right and the market is a lot more fluid than I think it is...