"K-Rumors" reporting of two new K models at Photokina

youky63 · 07-26-2010, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by frank

Pentax will announce:

K-5: a K-7 replacement w/ improved CMOS sensor, video capability, and more
K-y: a K-x replacement w/ some features only seen on K-7, and more
M4/3: Pentax' own mirrorless camera
And a bunch of P&S DCs w/ even fancier lookings than I-10 and H10

If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW.
PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

**Rorschach** · 07-26-2010, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by youky63

If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW.
PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

I would never spend 4000$ on ANY camera+lens combo and I bet there's a hell of a lot more of people like me than you in the Pentax user base.

**Aristophanes** · 07-26-2010, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by youky63

If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW.
PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

Likely they will not release a FF model, but have an announcement as to their intentions. Pentax is probably waiting to see what Nikanon do, especially with price points.

If Pentax comes out with a mirrorless, I bet it will be APS-C with the option of FF in the next 5 years (like Sony).

The real issue is lens offerings and mount compatibility. Mirrorless might force a new micro-k-mount. FF requires a new line-up. Pentax is in deep trouble if they orphan DA purchasers.

Christopher M.W.T · 07-26-2010, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Pentax is in deep trouble if they orphan DA purchasers.

Why? Canon have EF-S lenses which are incompatible with their FF.

mecrox · 07-26-2010, 05:25 AM

I'm glad I don't run a camera company, at least judging by the replies on this thread. Folks want high-end APS-C features at mid-range prices; they want an excellent FF camera but at less cost than offerings from Canonikon; they want a mirrorless camera that can still use legacy Pentax glass; they want lens prices to come back down, etc, etc. Navigating through this lot must be like passing through a minefield and so many of the options are margin-destroying from a business POV, too.

I've no idea what Pentax intend to do. However, I feel sure that whatever they do come up with, they must not give their users any reason to switch brands, which there will be if the cost of changing to a new Pentax product is not far off the cost of going Canonikon anyway.

I guess we'll soon find out. And we'll soon also find out whether Hoya's hard-nosed commercial instincts are more attuned to the mass-market, Kx-type stuff than to the high end. (There's nothing wrong with that, either - they have a business to run and Pentax is too small to service every sector of the market.)

frank · 07-26-2010, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by emr

Frank, is this wishes, guesses or inside information? If it is true, it's not excatly what I was expecting. I thought that one DSLR was supposed to come between K-x and K-7 and not replace K-x. Also, I'd hoped that the EVIL Pentax would be APS-C and not µ4/3. Or is that an EVIL-like general name for a mirrorless construction?

That's what I heard from various sources. Maybe the sources are wrong, maybe not. But they are not my guesses that's for sure

frank · 07-26-2010, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by youky63

If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW.
PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

Pentax fights against big players in the less than 2% FF market instead of the much bigger and fast growing EVIL market? Don't think so, at least not in the next year or two. Facing it, Pentax won't release an FF dSLR anytime soon, not now, not in Sept, not in a year or two.

I guess they don't care if they lost another customer. They'd gain a lot more if they go EVIL

Last edited by frank; 07-26-2010 at 05:43 AM.

rawr · 07-26-2010, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

...whatever they do come up with, they must not give their users any reason to switch brands...

Agreed. They must know that sometimes it costs less to hold onto existing customers than to acquire new ones.

Getting all those K-x and older body users into higher-end Pentax DSLR's, selling them more lenses and accessories etc wouldn't be a bad part of any future strategy. Maybe it shouldn't be their whole strategy, but it would be silly to not build on what you already have.

GrinMode · 07-26-2010, 05:52 AM

I hope they come up with better ergonomics for the mid range model.

I tried the K-x and the main reasons why I don't feel the urge to switch from the DS are:

One hand operation is nice, but two handed operation is faster (with good button design of course)
I have to transplant my thumb lower and closer to my wrist to comfortably use the d-pad.
Build quality. They don't build them like they used to.

Yes, the K-x overall IQ probably trumps the DS. But ergonomics is a primary factor I chose the DS over the other brands.

But if it's any consolation, a new model may drive the K-x price down, to a point I cannot resist :-)

**Aristophanes** · 07-26-2010, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by youky63

If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW.
PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes

Why? Canon have EF-S lenses which are incompatible with their FF.

Because DA is where most of the higher-end prosumers have put their $$$, especially the DA Ltd's.

Pentax has nowhere near the latitude as Canon on an issue such as this.

Mark Morb · 07-26-2010, 06:12 AM

I agree that it's unlikely that Pentax/Hoya will announce or release anything to do with FF for now it just doesn't make great business sense for them. However, if/when they do then the price is not an issue...I don't want to see a "budget" FF from Pentax, I want to see a fully fledged Pro-Level FF camera to make the most of my FA Ltd Lenses, as long as it's in the same ball park as Canon or Nikon then that's fine with me..
I'm also not a fan of this drive to reduce the size of DSLR's, Canon have announced that future DSLR's will be smaller..the Kx and K7 both point to the fact that is what Pentax have in store as well...
For Pro, Semi-Pro level photography I find it much better to have a sturdy, fairly hefty thing to get a good grip on. I have a Panasonic LX3 for the times where I need good quality but lightweight abilities. Although I know that the smaller bodied cameras have their fans...never going to please everyone...

**Aristophanes** · 07-26-2010, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by frank

Pentax fights against big players in the less than 2% FF market instead of the much bigger and fast growing EVIL market?

The EVIL market at 40% share (guess) might represent the exact same profit margins as the FF market at 2% share.

Would you rather a profit of $600 per unit on 5,000 units, or $60 per unit on 50,000 per unit.

Which one is going to have the higher marketing and distribution costs? Which one is most susceptible to consumer whim and broad market downturns?

And it doesn't matter. The cost of an FF sensor will eventually be as cost-effective as an M43 sensor. At that point, FF cleans up.

TaoMaas · 07-26-2010, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Would you rather a profit of $600 per unit on 5,000 units, or $60 per unit on 50,000 per unit.

Which one is going to have the higher marketing and distribution costs? Which one is most susceptible to consumer whim and broad market downturns?

It really depends upon where your core customer base lies. If your people will buy EVIL cameras, then that's where you ought to focus your efforts. Pentax is often compared to Subaru. Would it be wiser for Subaru to continue to develop the type of cars which they've become known for...or should they shift gears and try to knock off Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc...by making luxury cars? You have to know your market. Pentax's core market is at the lower-priced end of things.

eigelb · 07-26-2010, 07:28 AM

in the EVIL/MILC category Pentax will have more competitors (Olympus,Sony,Panasonic,Samsung, "Nikon - rumors") as in the 35mm DSRL category (Sony, Canon , Nikon) and the development of a 35mm camera + lenses will cost HOYA less then the EVIL one with totally new design of lenses and body, fast contrast AF etc,

Zebooka · 07-26-2010, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by eigelb

in the EVIL/MILC category Pentax will have more competitors (Olympus,Sony,Panasonic,Samsung, "Nikon - rumors") as in the 35mm DSRL category (Sony, Canon , Nikon) and the development of a 35mm camera + lenses will cost HOYA less then the EVIL one with totally new design of lenses and body, fast contrast AF etc,

In EVIL category lots of new comers will by Pentax cause they have no idea what system to choose and they have no background and lenses.
In FF category only advanced experienced amateurs will come.
:ugh:
FF is cool, but if Pentax doesn't produce EVIL - it will loose low end segment and eventually die. Or become the smallest player on the ring. Or both.

07-26-2010, 05:35 AM	#141
frank Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,202	Originally posted by emr Frank, is this wishes, guesses or inside information? If it is true, it's not excatly what I was expecting. I thought that one DSLR was supposed to come between K-x and K-7 and not replace K-x. Also, I'd hoped that the EVIL Pentax would be APS-C and not µ4/3. Or is that an EVIL-like general name for a mirrorless construction? That's what I heard from various sources. Maybe the sources are wrong, maybe not. But they are not my guesses that's for sure Last edited by frank; 07-26-2010 at 05:40 AM.

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07-26-2010, 04:12 AM	#136
youky63 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Osaka Posts: 143	Originally posted by frank Pentax will announce: K-5: a K-7 replacement w/ improved CMOS sensor, video capability, and more K-y: a K-x replacement w/ some features only seen on K-7, and more M4/3: Pentax' own mirrorless camera And a bunch of P&S DCs w/ even fancier lookings than I-10 and H10 If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW. PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave...

07-26-2010, 04:58 AM	#137
Rorschach Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kuusamo, Finland Photos: Gallery Posts: 652	Originally posted by youky63 If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW. PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave... I would never spend 4000$ on ANY camera+lens combo and I bet there's a hell of a lot more of people like me than you in the Pentax user base.

07-26-2010, 04:59 AM	#138
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by youky63 If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW. PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave... Likely they will not release a FF model, but have an announcement as to their intentions. Pentax is probably waiting to see what Nikanon do, especially with price points. If Pentax comes out with a mirrorless, I bet it will be APS-C with the option of FF in the next 5 years (like Sony). The real issue is lens offerings and mount compatibility. Mirrorless might force a new micro-k-mount. FF requires a new line-up. Pentax is in deep trouble if they orphan DA purchasers.

07-26-2010, 05:10 AM	#139
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Originally posted by Aristophanes Pentax is in deep trouble if they orphan DA purchasers. Why? Canon have EF-S lenses which are incompatible with their FF.

07-26-2010, 05:25 AM	#140
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	I'm glad I don't run a camera company, at least judging by the replies on this thread. Folks want high-end APS-C features at mid-range prices; they want an excellent FF camera but at less cost than offerings from Canonikon; they want a mirrorless camera that can still use legacy Pentax glass; they want lens prices to come back down, etc, etc. Navigating through this lot must be like passing through a minefield and so many of the options are margin-destroying from a business POV, too. I've no idea what Pentax intend to do. However, I feel sure that whatever they do come up with, they must not give their users any reason to switch brands, which there will be if the cost of changing to a new Pentax product is not far off the cost of going Canonikon anyway. I guess we'll soon find out. And we'll soon also find out whether Hoya's hard-nosed commercial instincts are more attuned to the mass-market, Kx-type stuff than to the high end. (There's nothing wrong with that, either - they have a business to run and Pentax is too small to service every sector of the market.)

07-26-2010, 05:37 AM	#142
frank Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,202	Originally posted by youky63 If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW. PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave... Pentax fights against big players in the less than 2% FF market instead of the much bigger and fast growing EVIL market? Don't think so, at least not in the next year or two. Facing it, Pentax won't release an FF dSLR anytime soon, not now, not in Sept, not in a year or two. I guess they don't care if they lost another customer. They'd gain a lot more if they go EVIL Last edited by frank; 07-26-2010 at 05:43 AM.*

07-26-2010, 05:41 AM	#143
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by mecrox ...whatever they do come up with, they must not give their users any reason to switch brands... Agreed. They must know that sometimes it costs less to hold onto existing customers than to acquire new ones. Getting all those K-x and older body users into higher-end Pentax DSLR's, selling them more lenses and accessories etc wouldn't be a bad part of any future strategy. Maybe it shouldn't be their whole strategy, but it would be silly to not build on what you already have.

07-26-2010, 05:52 AM	#144
GrinMode Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 249	I hope they come up with better ergonomics for the mid range model. I tried the K-x and the main reasons why I don't feel the urge to switch from the DS are: One hand operation is nice, but two handed operation is faster (with good button design of course) I have to transplant my thumb lower and closer to my wrist to comfortably use the d-pad. Build quality. They don't build them like they used to. Yes, the K-x overall IQ probably trumps the DS. But ergonomics is a primary factor I chose the DS over the other brands. But if it's any consolation, a new model may drive the K-x price down, to a point I cannot resist :-)

07-26-2010, 06:05 AM	#145
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by youky63 If they really do that they just lost a costumer ready to spend 4000+ dollars for a FF body with a nice DFA*24-70mm f/2.8. Because it is clear that if they start m4/3, they will not go FF before many years, and I need it NOW. PS: and I bet I would not be the only one to leave... Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes Why? Canon have EF-S lenses which are incompatible with their FF. Because DA is where most of the higher-end prosumers have put their $$$, especially the DA Ltd's. Pentax has nowhere near the latitude as Canon on an issue such as this.

07-26-2010, 06:12 AM	#146
Mark Morb Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Norfolk, England Posts: 203 Original Poster	I agree that it's unlikely that Pentax/Hoya will announce or release anything to do with FF for now it just doesn't make great business sense for them. However, if/when they do then the price is not an issue...I don't want to see a "budget" FF from Pentax, I want to see a fully fledged Pro-Level FF camera to make the most of my FA Ltd Lenses, as long as it's in the same ball park as Canon or Nikon then that's fine with me.. I'm also not a fan of this drive to reduce the size of DSLR's, Canon have announced that future DSLR's will be smaller..the Kx and K7 both point to the fact that is what Pentax have in store as well... For Pro, Semi-Pro level photography I find it much better to have a sturdy, fairly hefty thing to get a good grip on. I have a Panasonic LX3 for the times where I need good quality but lightweight abilities. Although I know that the smaller bodied cameras have their fans...never going to please everyone...

07-26-2010, 06:21 AM	#147
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by frank Pentax fights against big players in the less than 2% FF market instead of the much bigger and fast growing EVIL market? The EVIL market at 40% share (guess) might represent the exact same profit margins as the FF market at 2% share. Would you rather a profit of $600 per unit on 5,000 units, or $60 per unit on 50,000 per unit. Which one is going to have the higher marketing and distribution costs? Which one is most susceptible to consumer whim and broad market downturns? And it doesn't matter. The cost of an FF sensor will eventually be as cost-effective as an M43 sensor. At that point, FF cleans up.

07-26-2010, 06:58 AM	#148
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by Aristophanes Would you rather a profit of $600 per unit on 5,000 units, or $60 per unit on 50,000 per unit. Which one is going to have the higher marketing and distribution costs? Which one is most susceptible to consumer whim and broad market downturns? It really depends upon where your core customer base lies. If your people will buy EVIL cameras, then that's where you ought to focus your efforts. Pentax is often compared to Subaru. Would it be wiser for Subaru to continue to develop the type of cars which they've become known for...or should they shift gears and try to knock off Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc...by making luxury cars? You have to know your market. Pentax's core market is at the lower-priced end of things.

07-26-2010, 07:28 AM	#149
eigelb Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Italy Posts: 174	in the EVIL/MILC category Pentax will have more competitors (Olympus,Sony,Panasonic,Samsung, "Nikon - rumors") as in the 35mm DSRL category (Sony, Canon , Nikon) and the development of a 35mm camera + lenses will cost HOYA less then the EVIL one with totally new design of lenses and body, fast contrast AF etc,

07-26-2010, 08:10 AM	#150
Zebooka Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Russia, Siberia, Novosibirsk Posts: 323	Originally posted by eigelb in the EVIL/MILC category Pentax will have more competitors (Olympus,Sony,Panasonic,Samsung, "Nikon - rumors") as in the 35mm DSRL category (Sony, Canon , Nikon) and the development of a 35mm camera + lenses will cost HOYA less then the EVIL one with totally new design of lenses and body, fast contrast AF etc, In EVIL category lots of new comers will by Pentax cause they have no idea what system to choose and they have no background and lenses. In FF category only advanced experienced amateurs will come. :ugh: FF is cool, but if Pentax doesn't produce EVIL - it will loose low end segment and eventually die. Or become the smallest player on the ring. Or both.