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07-28-2010, 08:18 AM   #76
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LumoLabs: K-7 firmware 1.10.00.25

If anybody is wondering if the new firmware release 25 (aka 1.10.00.25) brings hidden improvements on the shutter induced blur topic ...

We did a quick test (still producing 800 blur width numbers ...) and found no statistically significant difference in this regard. And our accuracy is about 0.12px-0.15px, so we would have seen an improvement if it would have been there. Also, the effect still peaks at 1/80s and still is measurably larger than at 1/100s.

Measurement charts available on request.

07-28-2010, 08:57 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If anybody is wondering if the new firmware release 25 (aka 1.10.00.25) brings hidden improvements on the shutter induced blur topic ...
I did wonder but your answer beat me to my question.
08-24-2010, 12:00 PM   #78
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It's too bad a certain dpreview regular has decided to cast doubt on Falk's methods and (even more silly) his agenda ---> here.

Falk, I read the results and found your methods quite sound, even if your results were disappointing for Pentax fans like me who wanted this issue to be much ado about nothing...

My main concern now is the K-r and K-5. I'm hoping Pentax can find a way to mitigate the problem, even if the SR implementation is largely the same. Even if they don't, your shining a light on the issue helps us with finding potential workarounds on our own, so thx again.

.
08-24-2010, 05:32 PM   #79
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lumo overreacted imho...

08-24-2010, 05:52 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
lumo overreacted imho...
I received personal mail from DPR regulars about the post because said DPR regulars regarded it as offensive I may not want to ignore.

So, I informed interested readers that I have been made aware and that I classify the post as a libel. And that anybody can easily find out who's right. All three are facts.

Somebody decided to attack and offend me and disrupt my work (because emails started to pop up in my inbox). Maybe, I overreacted. But I have all right to do so.
08-24-2010, 09:28 PM   #81
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Falk, I hope that this doesn't cause you to think twice before researching and writing articles in the future. While your article doesn't apply to me so much (I don't have a K-7), I appreciate your work, even if I haven't said so before now.

IMO, I liken the slanderous attack on DPR to unprovoked road rage - highly offensive yet based on nothing really - I assume you have experienced this in Europe before too...
I mean, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, but personal attacks are just offensive and ultimately pointless.

Just a little bit of support from an appreciative pentax user.
cheers,
Jason
08-25-2010, 02:34 AM - 1 Like   #82
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Long rant attacing your excellent work Lumo - choose your weapon and defend yourself.

Some questions regarding your intentions lumo:
1. Have you checked the competitors cameras with comparable shutter regarding this problem - can/nik/sony/oly?
2. If you have not - then i must presume that it is possible that the Pentax K-7 is the best 1/8000sec shutter equipped camera in the world regarding this specific problem?
- If so then the problem is not Pentax but rather the difficultíes coupled with highperformance shutters, correct?
-If so then all you have accomplished is to kill pentax sales and promote the other camera companies.
-If so then you have contributed actively to kill Pentax.
In military intelligence we speak about "useful idiots" = people who THINK they are doing the right thing, but instead is helping someone standing in the background...In this case very useful to the Pentax competitors.
-If had any interest in killing Pentaxsales then i would award you a big bonus...
My point (not very subtle) is:
Regardless of your whitepapers technical validity i now believe that people will draw some potentially disastrous conclusions from your work. (e.g. Pentax K7 is the worst camera in its class, it produces blurry pictures...)

IF you really are interested in scientific "truth" i would expect you to know that all results have to be compared to something similar to have any scientific value.
Comparing K20D to K7 is like comparing apples to pears in my opinion.(Different shutters with different capabilitys)
If you on the other hand would compare K7 to D300s, then we would talk about true scientific evaluation of your results.

SO: I double dare you Lumo: Show us a comparison between K7/D300s and other competitors. THEN i will believe that this is not a crusade against Pentax, and that this widespread discussion has some real scientific interest.
Why am i reacting this way to your impressive work Lumo?
Because i shoot most of my work with K7, handheld, 5,2frames/sec using
Da*16-50, DA12-24 and K18/3,5. And i have not encountered this problem. Ever.
Beeing a pixelpeeper this mades me wonder...
(Let the bashing begin)
/Ryhfeed

Last edited by Ryhfeed; 08-25-2010 at 02:37 AM. Reason: Repeating myself unnecessarily
08-25-2010, 02:56 AM   #83
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do love the K7 a lot because of its features, built and handling. BUT !!
I alwas felt a bit dissapointed by the sharpness of many pics whatever lense I was using. Just not that pin-sharp poppy exposure that I sometimes did get without any possbile explanation. With the info from Falk (thanks for your work sir !)
I just went outside with a piece of paper (the back of a UPS carton envelop) with small written text en took pictures in Tv with 1/60, 1/100, and 1.850th shuttertime. 17mm lens (from my tamron 17-55 2.8)
AMAZING RESULT !!!!!!!!!!!!
1/60 and 1/100 (did not try more variations) where clearly blurry compared to very sharp rendered letters with the 1/850 shuttertime. With this length of 17mm and a steady hand that I have they sharpness of the pictures should be more or less equal but there is no doubt and every child will see the difference at a glance !!!!!
On one hand I am happy with the findings that correspond to my feelings with the camera from the beginning but on the other hand I want to sell my K7 now and that is no good news. I hope PENTAX will adress this issue with highest priority .
The test I did is very simple so I hope some of you will copy the test and give their findings.

08-25-2010, 03:12 AM   #84
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I hesitate to react to Ryhfeed, but here goes.
It is a Pentax forum, it talks about Pentax. Because we have Pentax stuff. How many of us have the means to add different systems and then compare and discuss. However, it would have been nice to have had comparable insights on other brand achievements as far as this shutter induced blur thing goes.
For me, as a simple housewife, only photographing with Pentax for over 35 years, it is a story of sadness and riddle. Some sort of recipee was included by Falk but it is hard to use when one has to. I spent an amazing last saturday afternoon in Cologne, at least three hours in the cathedral, with da15mm and k7 and iso above 800, trying to avoid 1/40-1/125 and it isn't easy. No tripod, multitudes of people, changing sunlight through windows, no flash. I think I have a great Pentax camera and an even greater 15mm da lens. I managed.
But I had time to think around the problem though energy consuming it is.

I am in awe for what Falk did, so much energy went into it. Honesty should prevail. It helps. Even if I didn't want to know, I now understand repeating blur and no longer have to blame myself for bad focussing. Believe me, it comforts me.
What can I say, there will be a next camera and there will be new problems and it never wil be (good) enough. Let's continue and be brave and take pictures with our Pentaxes.
08-25-2010, 03:33 AM   #85
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QuoteQuote:
Long rant attacing your excellent work Lumo - choose your weapon and defend yourself.
Oh no, not here again

Are you all having a bad summer? At least, your post isn't offensive which I do appreciate

As for your questions. We have no hidden agenda. The German forum discussion DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - LumoLabs: Verschluss-induzierte Unschärfen bei der K-7 may reveal more about the history and our motivation to do the study and to publish the results. The work started out from reported and acknowledged problems and 2 of the 3 authors (like you) thought that they don't encounter the problem.

The decision to publish the study wasn't taken light-heartedly and even discussed with Pentax. We know it may cause some damage to Pentax although the effect is minor rather than major as you seem to assume.

Moreover, I wouldn't call our work "scientific" as the subject is too trivial. Detecting the cosmic background radiation is scientific. Although Penzias discovery started out from unexpected radio noise In essence, our work satisfies our curiosity. That's it. And therefore, I have a simple hint for you: rather than attacking some work on no ground, why not satisfy your own curiosity and repeat the same measurements for a D300s? Or any other camera?
08-25-2010, 03:50 AM   #86
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I still keep a foot in Nikonland, and had an email exchange with Thom Hogan about the shutter slap issue falk detailed.I was tracking the light issues with the 24-70 as I track a lot of manufacturing errors in various industries as a sideline to my real job. Here is his response:

Indeed, I’m almost certain that the camera companies know this example very well. It’s a design choice. The Olympus m4/3 cameras exhibit the same issue, probably for the same reasons. It’s a cost/performance decision.

--
Thom Hogan, writer/photographer
Author, Complete Guides to the Nikon cameras (19 and counting)
Thom Hogan's Nikon Field Guide and Nikon Flash Guide


Falk investigated more thoroughly with 1 model of camera an issue known to designers already.

I love that term "useful idiots" Writing that down. Lots of those around. Falk is not one.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
Some questions regarding your intentions lumo:
1. Have you checked the competitors cameras with comparable shutter regarding this problem - can/nik/sony/oly?
2. If you have not - then i must presume that it is possible that the Pentax K-7 is the best 1/8000sec shutter equipped camera in the world regarding this specific problem?
- If so then the problem is not Pentax but rather the difficultíes coupled with highperformance shutters, correct?
-If so then all you have accomplished is to kill pentax sales and promote the other camera companies.
-If so then you have contributed actively to kill Pentax.
In military intelligence we speak about "useful idiots" = people who THINK they are doing the right thing, but instead is helping someone standing in the background...In this case very useful to the Pentax competitors.
-If had any interest in killing Pentaxsales then i would award you a big bonus...
My point (not very subtle) is:
Regardless of your whitepapers technical validity i now believe that people will draw some potentially disastrous conclusions from your work. (e.g. Pentax K7 is the worst camera in its class, it produces blurry pictures...)

IF you really are interested in scientific "truth" i would expect you to know that all results have to be compared to something similar to have any scientific value.
Comparing K20D to K7 is like comparing apples to pears in my opinion.(Different shutters with different capabilitys)
If you on the other hand would compare K7 to D300s, then we would talk about true scientific evaluation of your results.

SO: I double dare you Lumo: Show us a comparison between K7/D300s and other competitors. THEN i will believe that this is not a crusade against Pentax, and that this widespread discussion has some real scientific interest.
Why am i reacting this way to your impressive work Lumo?
Because i shoot most of my work with K7, handheld, 5,2frames/sec using
Da*16-50, DA12-24 and K18/3,5. And i have not encountered this problem. Ever.
Beeing a pixelpeeper this mades me wonder...
(Let the bashing begin)
/Ryhfeed
08-25-2010, 03:55 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
Some questions regarding your intentions lumo:
His first name is Falk. Maybe it's just me but I think it sounds rude if you address people with their surname without a prefix like "Mr." or similar. While I'm not Falk I know that he only has the best intentions. Do you know that he was one of the first in Germany to receive a K-7 for testing? Do you know about his blog where he regularly praised the K-7? He didn't produce fanboy babble but did repeatable measurements and argued many times that the K-7's performance is on par or very close to the K20D in terms of noise and the Nikon D300 with respect to AF when many other people simply parroted opinions how bad the K-7 supposedly is?

Do you know that Falk and the others who worked on the white paper consulted with Pentax first and got the green light from Pentax regarding going public with the results?

Take it from me that Falk is interested in Pentax's well-being and wants Pentax to produce the best camera they can. To support the latter he did a lot of work. It is not unlikely that this work will help Pentax to avoid such mistakes in the future and that is in the best interest of Pentax and all its customers/fans.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
1. Have you checked the competitors cameras with comparable shutter regarding this problem - can/nik/sony/oly?
Why would he?
Do you want him to do engineering work for the competition as well? Once you see the point that the work is in Pentax's interest, you won't challenge someone helping Pentax to help the competition as well, or will you?

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
2. If you have not - then i must presume that it is possible that the Pentax K-7 is the best 1/8000sec shutter equipped camera in the world regarding this specific problem?
Possibly, but not good enough in any event.
I'd say unlikely because the research suggests that there is an interaction between a hard shutter stop and the Pentax-specific SR. Canikon are a completely different story and I personally wouldn't expect the very same thing to happen with Soly systems. If they have problems they will likely manifest themselves in different ways. But that's speculation.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
- If so then the problem is not Pentax but rather the difficultíes coupled with highperformance shutters, correct?
No, see above.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
-If so then all you have accomplished is to kill pentax sales and promote the other camera companies.
I guess it would be great if Falk were so mighty he could "kill Pentax sales". I'm sure he'd put that power to good use. Seriously,
  • It is unlikely that the number of potential buyers that have decided against the K-7 based on Falk's work is high enough for Pentax to notice
  • He has helped Pentax to understand how to improve their cameras and avoid dissatisfied users. Falk and his team didn't create the problem, they merely explained the problem many were experiencing but didn't know how to avoid. Please don't shoot the messenger!
  • He has helped users to understand how to get blur-free images (avoid a certain shutter speed range or use a very sturdy tripod)
  • You could argue he has helped Pentax since many K-7 users may use the "shutter problem" as an excuse to upgrade to the K-5

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
In military intelligence we speak about "useful idiots" =
Let's avoid oxymorons and calling people "idiots" no matter how indirectly it is done.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
Regardless of your whitepapers technical validity i now believe that people will draw some potentially disastrous conclusions from your work. (e.g. Pentax K7 is the worst camera in its class, it produces blurry pictures...)
You cannot blame the white paper for unfounded conclusions people may draw from it. Falk and team created knowledge. If people misinterpret or misuse that knowledge, it is their fault.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
Comparing K20D to K7 is like comparing apples to pears in my opinion.(Different shutters with different capabilitys)
If you on the other hand would compare K7 to D300s, then we would talk about true scientific evaluation of your results.
How would a D300s shutter not be "different" and have "different capabilities" than a K-7 shutter? Comparing to a K20D makes sense as the same interaction between shutter induced shake and the SR control feedback loop may occur. Nothing of this sort may happen with the D300s (excluding potential lens VR problems for this discussion). How many D300s users have you seen scratching their head because they often couldn't achieve the sharpness they expected within a certain shutter speed range? If you find such reports and some people willing to spend hundreds of hours in finding out where the problem is then I congratulate you because you would then you might have helped Nikon and its user base to get a better camera next time.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
THEN i will believe that this is not a crusade against Pentax, and that this widespread discussion has some real scientific interest.
If you read what I have written without prejudice, I think you will agree that Falk's work has nothing to do with a crusade whatsoever. On the contrary.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ryhfeed Quote
And i have not encountered this problem. Ever.
Have you critically examined sharpness of your hand-held shots in the respective shutter range? Either you have the problem and haven't noticed it yet, or you somehow magically avoided it, or your K-7 is immune to the problem. The latter case would be very interesting indeed and would warrant some investigation but first we'll have to rule out the other two possibilities.

QuoteOriginally posted by bjan Quote
1/60 and 1/100 (did not try more variations) where clearly blurry compared to very sharp rendered letters with the 1/850 shuttertime.
It is expected that shorter shorter speeds will give you sharper images. The interesting bit is whether you'd see sharper images again, if you reduced the shutter speed below the critical range (don't know the concrete shutter speed from the top of my head).

QuoteOriginally posted by bjan Quote
On one hand I am happy with the findings that correspond to my feelings with the camera from the beginning but on the other hand I want to sell my K7 now and that is no good news.
It would be good news for Pentax if that meant you will upgrade to a K-5.
If you are not ready to upgrade yet, I'm sure you can work around the small weakness of the K-7. Remember, you should get sharper images below a certain shutter speed again and that a very sturdy tripod completely eliminates the problem. Also, you can get pinsharp shots even in the critical shutter range. Just not as often as you should.

Last edited by Class A; 08-25-2010 at 04:32 AM.
08-25-2010, 04:09 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Falk investigated more thoroughly with 1 model of camera an issue known to designers already.
I wouldn't be so sure that the designers knew about the problem that well.

I'd take Thom Hogan's input with a BIG grain of salt. As "Mr. Nikon" it is easy to suggest that the competition may purposefully screw their users. Why wasn't it a "design decision" with the K20D? Isn't it more likely that the faster K-7 shutter created a problem that the Pentax engineers didn't expect? Thom Hogan has no more insights than we do as to what the Pentax engineers knew about the problem. Coincidentally, I happened to read his blog today; he's stepping very much in the dark even in Nikonland...

Regarding Olympus' "design decision I found the following "Olympus E-P1 Blur issue article from Imaging-resource. It is interesting to see that Olympus apparently has to fight a very similar problem but given that they issued a firmware update that alleviated the issue I think it is fair to say that all manufactures with a sensor-based SR system have to address the challenge of shutter-induced blur, but it is not fair to say that they deliberately design their cameras to perform sub-optimally in certain circumstances.

And who knows how a lens-based SR system reacts to shutter-induced camera movement?

Last edited by Class A; 08-25-2010 at 05:08 AM.
08-25-2010, 04:19 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The decision to publish the study wasn't taken light-heartedly and even discussed with Pentax. We know it may cause some damage to Pentax although the effect is minor rather than major as you seem to assume.

Moreover, I wouldn't call our work "scientific" as the subject is too trivial. Detecting the cosmic background radiation is scientific...
I've a K-7 and sometimes it produces blurred photos that in hindsight can be explained by your findings, Falk. Until now I watched this and similar threads from afar with a bit of apprehension. However most recent developments lead me to say this - you have my utmost respect for more than just one reason.
08-25-2010, 04:30 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Oh no, not here again

Are you all having a bad summer? At least, your post isn't offensive which I do appreciate


The decision to publish the study wasn't taken light-heartedly and even discussed with Pentax. We know it may cause some damage to Pentax although the effect is minor rather than major as you seem to assume.

Moreover, I wouldn't call our work "scientific" as the subject is too trivial. Detecting the cosmic background radiation is scientific. Although Penzias discovery started out from unexpected radio noise In essence, our work satisfies our curiosity. That's it. And therefore, I have a simple hint for you: rather than attacking some work on no ground, why not satisfy your own curiosity and repeat the same measurements for a D300s? Or any other camera?

Fair enough, good (very good) answer to my questions. (I feel substantially less agitated now...)

By the way, no offense meant by calling you Lumo, Falconeye.

Some offence meant by indirectly calling you a "useful idiot"- sorry - , good of you not to fall in the pie throwing trap.

I`ve checked again and either i have a surprisingly good K7, or i´m not such i pixelpeeper i thougt after all. Discovered another thing though (now opening Pandoras box with a curious but vacant facial expression): If i shoot a burst of 2-3frames at any given shutter speed, and after that the SR hand symbol has lit up, the second or third fram is always (or at least in 80% of my VERY unscientific test) a tiny bit sharper than the first. (And i still percieve the first frame as sharp, the difference is subtle but easily noticable already on the cameras display.) Hmmm...I also dug out my old K10D and tried it and discovered the same thing there. Not double daring you again, but: Is this a phenomenon you (or anyone) have encountered?
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