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08-19-2007, 12:49 PM   #16
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Well this is the only Pentax site that I frequent.

I can say that from some of the Canon sites (I have been in those a lot longer) you do get odd behaviour.

Here is an example of typical Canon Lens forum interaction (oh and by the way, they do actually do that colour thing to denote the L lol).



OP: I just bought a Canon XTi for general photography with kit lens. I am looking for something with a little reach..can you guys recommend me something?

1: What are you going to use the lens for? What type of subjects?

OP: I was thinking of something like zoo photos when I take the family out.

2: You would need a 100-400 L.

3: I hear the 400 L is a nice lens? That might do the trick.

1: Yes those are beautiful lenses. I have a 500 L, and I can easily recommend that lens.

2: The 100-400 L, is perfect for the Zoo. A lot of nature photographers use that lens...

OP: Gee thanks for the good info. This site is the best.

(time goes by and the OP checks out the lenses on the net)

OP: Ummm...any cheaper alternatives out there. These are all really expensive lenses.

4: I can only recommend L glass. You get what you pay.

OP: Yeah, but I only bought the camera for family events.

3: L envy all the way baby...

1: Ok, Sigma makes a few nice lenses....

(This starts a big debate on how Sigma is not OEM, the whole compatibility argument about re-chiping lenses, and to top it all off, how a faster heavier lens is far better then a cheaper slower lens. Someone will then chip in that primes are better....by which time the OP was scared off).

This sort of odd behaviour still never ceases to make me chuckle. Probably why I am in here more often. The DA* topics are never as entertaining as what goes on in the Canon forums. I can swear that a few do work for Canon, trying to drum up sales on the expensive stuff. You do get the odd level headed photographer in the Canon forums..so apologies to those I may have offended by this caricature.

08-19-2007, 12:50 PM   #17
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On the other site, there are a couple of regulars that you would swear are being paid to attack anyone who says anything remotely anti - Pentax or remotely pro other manufacturers' products.

You hit that statement right on the money. There's some cats on that forum, about 8 or so, who are at their computer 15 hours a day. I mean, who could POSSIBLY post 30,40,50,80+ Times a WEEK? And they're way,way, way over the top about Pentax sometimes.

My dpreview epiphany came 3 months ago. I saw myself becoming more and more like that, and I got scared. So I left. I hit the gym, using all the time I pi**ed away reading dpreview. 14 pounds-Gone. I hiked and read and took photos. I still stopped by and lurked twice a week or so, but after you are away, you realize that you've outgrown it.

I stopped by yesterday and the first thing I read was a battle between
2 knuckleheads over EXIF in images. I gave up. Elvis had left the building.
That forum can really suck you into a vortex. It just doesn't seem like a very happy place.

This forum is a bit more relaxed. A bit less fanatic-driven.
Hey, I dig Pentax as much or more as anyone, but I'm figuring photography is supposed to be FUN. I could NEVER be as serious as those cats.

Last edited by Cam Traviss; 08-19-2007 at 01:57 PM.
08-19-2007, 01:12 PM   #18
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Guys, I appreciate all your views, regardless whether you agree or disagree. The nicest thing is to see how this discussion develops - I was reasonably sure I would get my head bitten right off. It didn't happen and that is a huge recommendation for this forum and its members.

Let's just set the record straight: did I choose Pentax because I liked the mix of quality, features and price? YES! Did I like the fact that I could still use my 30 year old Pentax 50mm/F2 and my Panagor 135mm/F2.8? YES! Did I trust the optical quality of Pentax (and the Sigmas and Tamrons and.....) lenses? YES!

But I must admit I am also somewhat of a rebel without a cause and it just felt good to NOT choose the obvious. I would have been equally happy with an Olympus f.i.

Still, all of the above will not lead me to be locked in when and if something better comes along in a couple of years, not even the lenses I bought and I try to keep LBA down to a bare minimum with that in mind. I will not let some marketeers claim my body, my soul AND the free publishing rights to my photos

For now, I think I will enjoy the relatively protected and very friendly environment of this forum and all of your remarkable contributions to it.

Happy shooting to all of you! I was out with my Pentax K110D today and will post some results asap.

Mike
08-19-2007, 01:39 PM   #19
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I'm involved in quite a few forums (although I've spent a lot of time here since I joined:-)) for my different interests and I think the Admin play a crucial role in a forum. Probably especially in the beginning stages when a core group is being formed. I've lurked at the other guy's forums and when I see attitudes and lack of respect displayed to each other and especially to newbies, I'm gone. I don't have time to waste in pointless flame wars that can never be won. When I was doing my research on a DSLR and found out about the new Pentax I was fortunate to find this forum where intelligent conversations about the pros and cons were discussed and also great tips and ideas about photography in general. It made going with the Pentax system even easier. To me, a forum such as this is the great power of the internet. A place where answers can be found and ideas discussed and shared. A place where people from all over the world can interact in a friendly environ. Here I've seen pictures from India, Scandinavia, Australia, England, Canada, etc etc. Am I a Pentaxian? I don't know, I bought into it because of the value and the fact that Pentax still provides a way to use all their old glass, that was the main thing for me. I can't afford $2000 lenses. But I can afford some $200 lenses and Pentax allows me to use them. I'll never be a great photographer but I'm having fun trying:-).

08-19-2007, 02:10 PM   #20
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I like the "Pentaxian" idea but I think I'd like to see some "Productians" in the form of good, affordable long glass....that'll keep me around...unfortunately its more readily available in other mounts...
08-19-2007, 02:17 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by PaulAndAPentax Quote
I like the "Pentaxian" idea but I think I'd like to see some "Productians" in the form of good, affordable long glass....that'll keep me around...unfortunately its more readily available in other mounts...
Count me in on that desire Paul... Long, affordable and AVAILABLE glass is at the top of my list... That and a 10mm rectalinear prime...
08-19-2007, 02:30 PM   #22
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That's just it, Mike. These other camera companies got where they are because they made their stuff available and of decent quality. Pentax can do the same. It had a really good reputation before 1985 or so. I hope to see it come back.
08-19-2007, 03:06 PM   #23
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I have enjoyed this thread. I bought my Pentaxian tee shirt to wear to a friend's bar--que because I knew a number of canon and nikon fanatics would be there, I had to stir the pot a little. Actually my DSLR and SLR equipment is pentax, my compact digicam is canon my binoculars are nikon I bought kodak compacts for both my kids and have convinced my brother that nikon is his best option for his needs..guess I'm multinational.

08-19-2007, 03:44 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by PaulAndAPentax Quote
That's just it, Mike. These other camera companies got where they are because they made their stuff available and of decent quality. Pentax can do the same. It had a really good reputation before 1985 or so. I hope to see it come back.
And they (Canon and Nikon) backed up those products with marketing. That has always been Pentax's biggest failing since the mid-80s. Its almost like they didnt believe in their own products any more. Perhaps they even believed the products would market themselves. So, even though Pentax built quality products during the late 80s and 90s (like the F* and FA* lenses), no one but the hardcore Pentaxians knew about them or even cared. Few, if any pros used any Pentax equipment except for the odd diehard that used the old MX's or LX's. In short, Pentax had the product, but their marketing department failed miserably.

In contrast, Canon and Nikon's marketing departments were very aggressive in attracting Pro shooters and have done a superior job getting their logos out before the general public. That's what drives Uncle Joe to buy a Canon or Nikon. "Maw I just gotta get me one o' them CaNon camers that I saw on the sidelines at the Stuper Bowl!" They don't buy because they know anything about the particular model or brand, just that "Hey if thats what the pros use I need one too".

This is the arena Pentax needs to concentrate on at this point in history. They already have many of us here on PF hooked (at least they do me), but it is in the general public that they need to build a desire for the Pentax brand. Most importantly, they need to convince Uncle Joe that he can get more bang for his buck by purchasing a Pentax. To do this, they need to attract more working pros, like Ben, to the brand. Doing this will get the brand more visibility and exposure. The Pentax logo should start making a scene on the sidelines and in the endzones of football and soccer games and along the road during bicycle races and motorsports, and probably most important, the Olympics. It should start showing up on the runways of the fashion industry and in the hands of photographers shooting hard news. People need to see the brand to know it exists and is a competitor.

Right now, probably the easiest and possibly most emersive venue for mass marketing, is the internet and this is precisely what the "pentaxian" thing is all about. Hopefully Pentax Marketing (are you reading this Ned?) will keep up the press and pull out all the stops. Use all the tools in the box! Canon and Nikon certainly do.

Does Pentax need to back up the marketing with products and availability? By all means, but they still have to market the brand, otherwise we become another piece of photographic history like Minolta...

Last edited by MRRiley; 08-19-2007 at 05:22 PM.
08-19-2007, 04:22 PM   #25
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I agree Mike. I went to the Jacksonville Jaguars pre-season game last night and watched all the photographers on the sidelines....of course, Canon EOS1's were everywhere and I think a Nikon or two. No Pentax that I could determine. I was thinking how great it would be to be down there with my K10D and a 600mm lens. Maybe one day.

The only think I would add, back to product, is that if the marketing goes well, there's gonna be a demand that might not get met...which could cause more bad in the long run than good....perhaps not...
08-19-2007, 05:25 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
It is amusing to me that many "Pentaxians" sound more like shareholders than just customers.

Well, we are shareholders of a sort. Our share is in the investments we've made in the Pentax equipment we own, with the perceived value of that investment going up or down with the fortunes of the company.

Let me give you are very real example. In the middle of 2005, I invested considerable money in new Konica Minolta photo equipment. That included two new camera bodies, several lenses, three flash units, and various accessories. All this, of course, on top of the Minolta items already owned. Six months later, after the company announced it was leaving the camera business, I would have been lucky to get a plugged nickel for everything. I might be able to get more today (now that the dust has settled somewhat), but nothing like I would have gotten had the company remained in the business.

I certainly would not like to see the same thing happen to Pentax, or my investment in Pentax equipment. Clearly, the situation is not at all the same for Pentax as it was for Konica Minolta, by my investment in Pentax equipment has nonetheless been attenuated by that earlier experience with Konica Minolta, causing me to hesitate buying Pentax-specific equipment while opting for more universal items wherever possibile instead. As the situation for Pentax continues to improve (and it is well on it's way towards that), much of that hesitation will likely disappear.

stewart
08-19-2007, 05:44 PM   #27
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It has to be a bit of catch-22. If they step up the marketing campaign and create a demand, they have to back it up with product, which they don't seem to have right now. But what if they build more factories and step up production and build all these new great products and the market isn't there? They need an aggressive leader with vision and pride to step up and say We're taking Pentax back to the top, let's get to work!
But what if he says something like "Well we can't have our customers using all these old lenses, we need to sell them all new lenses so we can make more money to pay for the marketing campaign and new factories." And I bet it would come to that. That's what Canon and Nikon have done.
So we're in a catch-22 situation, ourselves.
08-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eaglerapids Quote
It has to be a bit of catch-22. If they step up the marketing campaign and create a demand, they have to back it up with product, which they don't seem to have right now. But what if they build more factories and step up production and build all these new great products and the market isn't there? They need an aggressive leader with vision and pride to step up and say We're taking Pentax back to the top, let's get to work!
But what if he says something like "Well we can't have our customers using all these old lenses, we need to sell them all new lenses so we can make more money to pay for the marketing campaign and new factories." And I bet it would come to that. That's what Canon and Nikon have done.
So we're in a catch-22 situation, ourselves.
Pentax has had ample opportunity to do that over the years and has resisted it. I'll admit that HOYA introduces a new variable, but I do not see even them throwing away one of the largest advantages of the brand (backward lens compatability) very easily. I think we have seen the worst they will do lens-wise with the development of the DA standard which sadly will not work well on the old film bodies. No, I don't see even the most aggressive marketer changing the lens mount.
08-19-2007, 08:08 PM   #29
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I'd just like to say that this thread certainly have been replied to by sensible people thus far, and this is probably why I never stuck with the *other* forum. Suffice to say, I get reasonable opinions and thoughts here, and there are only few instances where people resort to flaming.

Pentax would certainly do itself a favor to have someone pore through these forums so they'd have a pulse of how things are with their current customers. Better yet, they should integrate this forum in their Pentaxian.com site.

Anyway, I'm submitting a response to the e-mail, not because I'm a zealot, but simply because I have been happy thus far with my lone Pentax purchase (K10D), and I'd be happier if I could get others to at least consider the current Pentax offerings, which, for me, are good value for the money.

Like others, once Pentax starts flagging in customer concern, I'd look to try out another brand, even go back to what I had once (that's Canon, for full disclosure) if they present better options.
08-19-2007, 08:19 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Pentax has had ample opportunity to do that over the years and has resisted it. I'll admit that HOYA introduces a new variable, but I do not see even them throwing away one of the largest advantages of the brand (backward lens compatability) very easily. I think we have seen the worst they will do lens-wise with the development of the DA standard which sadly will not work well on the old film bodies. No, I don't see even the most aggressive marketer changing the lens mount.
Mike, I'm with you on that point. There are those (like me) who bought into Pentax because the old lenses would still work nicely with the new bodies.

Perhaps it's also a ploy by Pentax to hide their current inability to mass produce lenses to a scale that Canon and Nikon can, but nevertheless, it's also a boon (even if unintended) for consumers. And it's also telling that Pentax chose not to alienate the non-SDM bodies when they made the DA*s. Hopefully, they wouldn't change mounts for a long, long time. The current mount is still very much workable and allows for new technologies such as SDM, which is a feather in the cap for Pentax's engineers.

Pentax just lacks the marketing muscle, and I'm quite happy that they're starting to become more aggressive. It also helps that the engineers did their share, winning the top three most prestigious camera awards with the K10D.
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